BA flies back into profit
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WWW-BAs longhaul pax will not tolerate the quality/reliabilty of service offered by the Low Cost Carriers.It may offer good value for money for the average bod/self employed businessman but it is companies not the individuals who pay BAs fares- they want frills not hassle.
It would be suicide for a company so heavily dependant on continental travel to rely on LCCs to feed London(if that is what you are suggesting).
Unless the British Airways Pilots Association suddenly starts to take an interest the future of regional flying outside London it will become high frequency in a/c smaller than the 737.
It would be suicide for a company so heavily dependant on continental travel to rely on LCCs to feed London(if that is what you are suggesting).
Unless the British Airways Pilots Association suddenly starts to take an interest the future of regional flying outside London it will become high frequency in a/c smaller than the 737.
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Naughty Boy
Have been driven to this forum by rumblings throughout the Industry, created by Mr Notso's selfish and stupid comments.
Having worked closely with Pilots in general all my career, I have met very few who have such a narrow minded attitude as Mr Notso's, and I know for a fact that he is indeed in the minority and incidentally obviously doesn't understand the Industry very well, hasn't he heard of Contract Pilots, because they are out there. You need me Mr Notso, like I need you.( unfortunately) Whether I be a Contractor or not. Rools are rools, especially when they are C.A.A. Rools. So next time you see a baggage handler crawling round the cargo bay, or a dispatcher running around like a headless chicken, or the poor Engineer up to his arms in manky brake dust. Spare a thought and be thankful that your parents had enough money to sponser you through your training. And just before you get all warm and cosy, here's a true story. I was flight Engineer for a Company and would accompany the flight crew in the Cockpit or Control Cabin as we call it nowadays. One day the Managing Director was on the flight and requested to sit in the Cockpit, like a good footsoldier I gave up the hard and uncomfortable seat to allow the M.D. his wish. 20 minutes into the flight when I was called to the cockpit, I heard the M.D. say to the Captain. You don't actually do much up here do you, DO WE REALLY NEED BOTH OF YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Mr Notso, If Mr M.D. has his way, half of you'se will be out on yer A&3es. So be thankfull for Rools and show some RESPECT to all Footsoldiers of various disciplines, You might not have earned it, but we certainly have.
Having worked closely with Pilots in general all my career, I have met very few who have such a narrow minded attitude as Mr Notso's, and I know for a fact that he is indeed in the minority and incidentally obviously doesn't understand the Industry very well, hasn't he heard of Contract Pilots, because they are out there. You need me Mr Notso, like I need you.( unfortunately) Whether I be a Contractor or not. Rools are rools, especially when they are C.A.A. Rools. So next time you see a baggage handler crawling round the cargo bay, or a dispatcher running around like a headless chicken, or the poor Engineer up to his arms in manky brake dust. Spare a thought and be thankful that your parents had enough money to sponser you through your training. And just before you get all warm and cosy, here's a true story. I was flight Engineer for a Company and would accompany the flight crew in the Cockpit or Control Cabin as we call it nowadays. One day the Managing Director was on the flight and requested to sit in the Cockpit, like a good footsoldier I gave up the hard and uncomfortable seat to allow the M.D. his wish. 20 minutes into the flight when I was called to the cockpit, I heard the M.D. say to the Captain. You don't actually do much up here do you, DO WE REALLY NEED BOTH OF YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Mr Notso, If Mr M.D. has his way, half of you'se will be out on yer A&3es. So be thankfull for Rools and show some RESPECT to all Footsoldiers of various disciplines, You might not have earned it, but we certainly have.
Filtonman - I was not suggesting that.
The UK could be EU leader in air transport if it had the best Low Cost scheduled sector AND the best full service sheduled sector.
WWW
The UK could be EU leader in air transport if it had the best Low Cost scheduled sector AND the best full service sheduled sector.
WWW
Last edited by Wee Weasley Welshman; 17th Aug 2002 at 01:22.
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Wow Footsoldier! Feel better for getting that off your chest? Good one. FYI, I do actually show a lot of respect for my colleagues. But when members of other pay groups, sensing that pilots have a case for a better rise this year try and 'attach themselves' to the pilots bandwagon, then I'm afraid it needs saying. These groundstaff (of which I would say there are AT LEAST 20,000 SURPLUS heads in BA) have no hold over pilots. Eddington should have had blood flowing through that stream in Waterside (in fact there should not be a Waterside). Move some desks back into TBA or similar, leave the people in Waterside to work for Tesco who should be the natural owners of such a place. Large scale redundancies are the only way to get BA to survive this crisis. As for other groups trying to hitch themselves to pilots for a free pay ride - forget it. Things are developing at the moment- we shall see more in the next couple of weeks. But as far as worrying about you and other suits in your departments that quite possibly would be better subcontracted out, I won't lose any sleep! If you understood airline procedures better, I think you may see the problem with licensing pilots to fly worldwide BA routes. Can't be done to subcontract in I'm afraid.
But I hope you feel better getting that nonsense off your chest!
But I hope you feel better getting that nonsense off your chest!
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Thanks for your prompt reply Mr Notso, don't get me wrong, in one hand I totally agree with you. Until B.A. or nowadays big bad Rod who apparently only earned £497,000 this year, get their act together and take the redundancy issue seriously and get rid of the 20,000 people who you quite rightly say, could be done without. Then B.A. will continue to head downwards on that slippery spiral. I mean have you ever worked for a Company that has so many job titles or middle management positions ?.
But you are being naive if you think that contracting everything out is the answer. The idea of the virtual airline has never actually been taken on by any Airline, this has already been proved within Engineering, all you get is more cost and more inefficiency. That is why for example even the no-frill airlines i.e. Ryanair, are starting their own Maintenance facilties, because in some of the ground staff area's, ultimately it is more cost efficient, and they are in control of their own destiny.
B.A. has suffered years of mis-management and is now paying the price, because it doesn't have the millions to waste as it used to have.
The no-frills are poaching our business customers, and until that changes, God help us all.
We are told that the biggest cost problem within B.A. is the wage bill. The problem that B.A. has is that it pays, the unqualified end of the payscale, well over and above the Industry average. That is not to include the Licensed area, as B.A. are about to find out in the Glasgow area as soon as Ryanair open up for business. Being a C.A.A. qualified professional I too expect like yourself, a certain salary. B.A. is now falling short of what I expect to earn, and B.A. will ultimately lose my services and many like me.
As someone has already mentioned, we belong to our own Unions, and if these Unions can get a good deal for ourselves, then good for us. But please change your attitude, Pilots are not the be and end all, whatever Airline we work for, we are all part of the one Industry, and ultimately all reliant on one another, and yes our wage slips should reflect our own personal qualifications and disciplines.
As the song says " I am not a bitter man ". I am not originally B.A.. and therefore have operated in the big wide world. B.A. is definately the most F**ked up Company I have worked for, mainly based upon the Ar****les who manage us.
I have tried to change that for the better. I have failed !!!!!!!
B.A. does not want to change, the people who manage us are more into self-interest, than improving B.A. the Company.
B.P.R. really does stand for Be Prepared for Redundancy.
I am !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you are being naive if you think that contracting everything out is the answer. The idea of the virtual airline has never actually been taken on by any Airline, this has already been proved within Engineering, all you get is more cost and more inefficiency. That is why for example even the no-frill airlines i.e. Ryanair, are starting their own Maintenance facilties, because in some of the ground staff area's, ultimately it is more cost efficient, and they are in control of their own destiny.
B.A. has suffered years of mis-management and is now paying the price, because it doesn't have the millions to waste as it used to have.
The no-frills are poaching our business customers, and until that changes, God help us all.
We are told that the biggest cost problem within B.A. is the wage bill. The problem that B.A. has is that it pays, the unqualified end of the payscale, well over and above the Industry average. That is not to include the Licensed area, as B.A. are about to find out in the Glasgow area as soon as Ryanair open up for business. Being a C.A.A. qualified professional I too expect like yourself, a certain salary. B.A. is now falling short of what I expect to earn, and B.A. will ultimately lose my services and many like me.
As someone has already mentioned, we belong to our own Unions, and if these Unions can get a good deal for ourselves, then good for us. But please change your attitude, Pilots are not the be and end all, whatever Airline we work for, we are all part of the one Industry, and ultimately all reliant on one another, and yes our wage slips should reflect our own personal qualifications and disciplines.
As the song says " I am not a bitter man ". I am not originally B.A.. and therefore have operated in the big wide world. B.A. is definately the most F**ked up Company I have worked for, mainly based upon the Ar****les who manage us.
I have tried to change that for the better. I have failed !!!!!!!
B.A. does not want to change, the people who manage us are more into self-interest, than improving B.A. the Company.
B.P.R. really does stand for Be Prepared for Redundancy.
I am !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Not So Fantastic.
Are you by any chance ex RAF as your mightier than thou attitude stinks
Only CAA approved pilots to fly BA routes! So what are Atlas doing flying BA freighter routes then.
Air Atlanta regurlarly fly for UK operators using "TF" registered aircraft and multi-national crews, what makes you think they could not take your job away if it suited BA management?
I can only speak from an engineering point of view and must ask you if you want some under paid subcontract engineer, who has no care if the flight goes on time etc maintaining the aircraft in which you fly or are you going to maintain and CERTIFY it yourself? Thought not
I am sure BA could get rid of many admin/support staff but please don't think that all non pilots are unqualified low life
Are you by any chance ex RAF as your mightier than thou attitude stinks
Only CAA approved pilots to fly BA routes! So what are Atlas doing flying BA freighter routes then.
Air Atlanta regurlarly fly for UK operators using "TF" registered aircraft and multi-national crews, what makes you think they could not take your job away if it suited BA management?
I can only speak from an engineering point of view and must ask you if you want some under paid subcontract engineer, who has no care if the flight goes on time etc maintaining the aircraft in which you fly or are you going to maintain and CERTIFY it yourself? Thought not
I am sure BA could get rid of many admin/support staff but please don't think that all non pilots are unqualified low life
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Jet II:
The benchmarking was done against other European national carriers including Air France, Lufthansa and KLM. Like for like, only fair really.
Denzil:
In order to hold a United Kingdom Air Operator's Certificate (ie. to be a British airline), the pilots must be employed by that operator. It's all in JAR-OPS 1 apparently.
[Corrected for finger trouble]
The benchmarking was done against other European national carriers including Air France, Lufthansa and KLM. Like for like, only fair really.
Denzil:
In order to hold a United Kingdom Air Operator's Certificate (ie. to be a British airline), the pilots must be employed by that operator. It's all in JAR-OPS 1 apparently.
[Corrected for finger trouble]
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OK Human Factor, but that doesn't explain the "TF" registered aircraft currently operating for VS & Excel. What stops BA flagging out services (like it did with freighter ops). I know this is never going to happen, just saying that its not impossible! Thus we can ALL be contracted out to a point!!!
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Size is what stops BA flagging out. You'd probably need the entire civil air fleet of Iceland to make a dent in an operation of BAs size. BA operate over 50 744s, around 50 777s, 40ish A319/320s, 20 or so 757/767 , around 40 737s and 7 Concordes. There aren't that many spare pilots floating around Europe with the necessary type ratings to replace the whole operation so they might as well stick with the economies of scale of keeping their own flight crew.
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You also forgot the RJ's - although they don't work very often nowadays - I'm actually contemplating asking if I can work on the ATR - sounds like a laugh - flasks of hot water for coffee and tea - back to basics but loads of split duties!!!
