BA flies back into profit
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M Mouse.
I do virtually exactly the same job as you -
routes,aircraft,responsibilities. I am paid a bit less (market rate for the job). My pension will almost certainly be less than yours when you retire.
Why not recognise that you are very lucky to have what you do have. If you and your colleagues rock the BA boat much harder, it won't be long before you, and all the people who depend on BA are swimming.
I do virtually exactly the same job as you -
routes,aircraft,responsibilities. I am paid a bit less (market rate for the job). My pension will almost certainly be less than yours when you retire.
Why not recognise that you are very lucky to have what you do have. If you and your colleagues rock the BA boat much harder, it won't be long before you, and all the people who depend on BA are swimming.
Boeing SLF
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I am really an outsider here, working in Computer Software sales, but I do have a strong interest in my favorite 'frills' airlines surviving.
How do you guys feel about a variable pay scheme ?
In the IT business many made a furtune in 98-99, but at the moment revenue is quite low - and our income follows revenue.
I do feel however, that a nice base pay combined with a variable pay depending on company financial results is the most fair way to compensate those who are responsible for generating revenue.
Rather than asking say pilots to accept a lower wage in order to reduce costs, a new scheme with an acceptable base + an unlimited bonus depending on profit should fit both parties.
It would be motivating for all, making unions think twice before increasing cost by demanding extra headcounts for a given task.
At the same time, wages would automatically go up, when profit is back - without the requirement for new wage negotiations.
If base pay is say 65% and variable pay 35%, the bonus would automatically increase with seniority and the variable pay would not be so large that you are at serious fincancial risk if you miss the bonus one year.
Typically in the IT industry, bonus is increased by accelerator factors, giving much more than a linear increase in bonus when profit exceeds a set target.
Good luck
Regards
Michael
How do you guys feel about a variable pay scheme ?
In the IT business many made a furtune in 98-99, but at the moment revenue is quite low - and our income follows revenue.
I do feel however, that a nice base pay combined with a variable pay depending on company financial results is the most fair way to compensate those who are responsible for generating revenue.
Rather than asking say pilots to accept a lower wage in order to reduce costs, a new scheme with an acceptable base + an unlimited bonus depending on profit should fit both parties.
It would be motivating for all, making unions think twice before increasing cost by demanding extra headcounts for a given task.
At the same time, wages would automatically go up, when profit is back - without the requirement for new wage negotiations.
If base pay is say 65% and variable pay 35%, the bonus would automatically increase with seniority and the variable pay would not be so large that you are at serious fincancial risk if you miss the bonus one year.
Typically in the IT industry, bonus is increased by accelerator factors, giving much more than a linear increase in bonus when profit exceeds a set target.
Good luck
Regards
Michael
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When are BA going to stand up to the unions within the handling? Despatchers who have been there for 15+ years on old-style escalation contracts, earning a fortune, are doing 2-3 turnrounds on a 10 hour shift. That's great utilisation.
Yet at the same time LGW appear to be short of passenger service staff?? How many flights are being delayed because the whole North Terminal is operating on 'check release' (i.e. Do not call the flight to the gate until staff are available.....often long after STD.)
And don't even start me on the inefficiencies with the ramp staff.
And how much ground equipment just sits there for weeks on end without ever moving. What a waste of assets.
Look under your noses BA....you haven't even started trying to tackle your ground handling cost problems.
And anyone can maintain market share by offering low fares, but only some airlines can sustain those low fares in the long term by making money on them....and BA are a long way from achieving that!
Yet at the same time LGW appear to be short of passenger service staff?? How many flights are being delayed because the whole North Terminal is operating on 'check release' (i.e. Do not call the flight to the gate until staff are available.....often long after STD.)
And don't even start me on the inefficiencies with the ramp staff.
And how much ground equipment just sits there for weeks on end without ever moving. What a waste of assets.
Look under your noses BA....you haven't even started trying to tackle your ground handling cost problems.
And anyone can maintain market share by offering low fares, but only some airlines can sustain those low fares in the long term by making money on them....and BA are a long way from achieving that!
Controversial, moi?
fiftyfour
I didn't say I didn't appreciate what I have and for what it is worth I am against pursuing an unrealistic pay claim given the state of the airline at the moment but there are very, very many pilots within BA - EOG, cadets, etc. - far more disillusioned, angry and militant than I.
Appalling waste and mis-management in the company has been prevalent for years and is now crippling us.
In real terms we have been slowly slipping behind on the pay front, working a good deal harder than ever before and in fact many in the company cannot legally work any harder.
Pilots in BA have been left behind when it comes to even keeping pace with the cost of living, in reality we have fallen way behind.
For reasons stated previously I believe it is in everybody's interest that we are paid appropriately.
Agreed.
I didn't say I didn't appreciate what I have and for what it is worth I am against pursuing an unrealistic pay claim given the state of the airline at the moment but there are very, very many pilots within BA - EOG, cadets, etc. - far more disillusioned, angry and militant than I.
Appalling waste and mis-management in the company has been prevalent for years and is now crippling us.
In real terms we have been slowly slipping behind on the pay front, working a good deal harder than ever before and in fact many in the company cannot legally work any harder.
Pilots in BA have been left behind when it comes to even keeping pace with the cost of living, in reality we have fallen way behind.
For reasons stated previously I believe it is in everybody's interest that we are paid appropriately.
If you and your colleagues rock the BA boat much harder, it won't be long before you, and all the people who depend on BA are swimming.
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Airbus Girl
I work for BA and have done Tel Aviv there and back in a day on both the 737 and 777.
The 737 was a scheduled day trip (40 min turnround) but often we had to divert on the way home as even with discretion we were out of hours. It happened so often that the company saw sense and moved it to 75/6 and then 777.
On the 777 I have to admit we did carry an extra heavy pilot as again the duty day exceeded limits with 2 crew. Remember you cant turn around a 777 in less than about 2 hrs if its a full one rather than a transit.
One of our aism is to provide a robust operation for our premium passengers and a reliable sceduled service is what they pay a premium for. Delaying/diverting/cancelling flights due to crew hour problems is not acceptable. Yes other crews do work harder than us in certain areas but OUR pax pay for increased reliability of the schedule by having crews able to complete sectors even after delays.
Not having a go....
I work for BA and have done Tel Aviv there and back in a day on both the 737 and 777.
The 737 was a scheduled day trip (40 min turnround) but often we had to divert on the way home as even with discretion we were out of hours. It happened so often that the company saw sense and moved it to 75/6 and then 777.
On the 777 I have to admit we did carry an extra heavy pilot as again the duty day exceeded limits with 2 crew. Remember you cant turn around a 777 in less than about 2 hrs if its a full one rather than a transit.
One of our aism is to provide a robust operation for our premium passengers and a reliable sceduled service is what they pay a premium for. Delaying/diverting/cancelling flights due to crew hour problems is not acceptable. Yes other crews do work harder than us in certain areas but OUR pax pay for increased reliability of the schedule by having crews able to complete sectors even after delays.
Not having a go....
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Good news....
I have created NotSo Fantastic Virtual airline for all to see in the Jet Blast Forum.
I didn't think such a silly topic belong in the main forum.
Come, read, enjoy, comment
Notso, please take a look, your dreams come true.............
I have created NotSo Fantastic Virtual airline for all to see in the Jet Blast Forum.
I didn't think such a silly topic belong in the main forum.
Come, read, enjoy, comment
Notso, please take a look, your dreams come true.............
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A couple of points.
Jet II, only last week I was to be seen running, if my memory serves me, from N78 to A5. Sadly though we managed to get the a/c set up on time (because we ran) the a/c was delayed due to the inability of the engineers to get an engineer ou to a/c even with 2 hours notice (requested by the last crew). Would you believe it, when he arrived he was walking, not running.
Bodstrup, I would love to be paid like the IT industry. Mr Pandora is in the IT industry, and his basic is more than my pay and allowances together. When bonus day comes - wahey, shopping
Jet II, only last week I was to be seen running, if my memory serves me, from N78 to A5. Sadly though we managed to get the a/c set up on time (because we ran) the a/c was delayed due to the inability of the engineers to get an engineer ou to a/c even with 2 hours notice (requested by the last crew). Would you believe it, when he arrived he was walking, not running.
Bodstrup, I would love to be paid like the IT industry. Mr Pandora is in the IT industry, and his basic is more than my pay and allowances together. When bonus day comes - wahey, shopping
Usual disclaimers apply!
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Sorry Pandora
The engr was walking because.-
a). He was too knackered.
b). He's been dicked about so much by a retarded management that he probably doesn't care anyway.
c). He's been told to walk and not run as it doesn't look professional.
The engr was walking because.-
a). He was too knackered.
b). He's been dicked about so much by a retarded management that he probably doesn't care anyway.
c). He's been told to walk and not run as it doesn't look professional.
Last edited by gas path; 5th Aug 2002 at 12:36.
Boeing SLF
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Pandora, you just have to be prepared for the 'off' years as well. My income in 99 was 3 x 2001.
Luckily 2002 looks a lot better than 2001, but no way near 99, those days are probably gone
But, I like the idea, as - at least my company - has had very limited lay-offs, as they save on comission when income is low.
Companies I work with who have a fixed wage policy appear to be quicker to lay-off staff when the going gets tough.
Regards
Michael
Luckily 2002 looks a lot better than 2001, but no way near 99, those days are probably gone
But, I like the idea, as - at least my company - has had very limited lay-offs, as they save on comission when income is low.
Companies I work with who have a fixed wage policy appear to be quicker to lay-off staff when the going gets tough.
Regards
Michael
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As a regular BA passenger travelling full fare twice a week between LHR and NCL I have to say that if the deterioration in service and staff morale is anything to go by then BA is in big trouble. 8/10 flights are delayed and 4/10 delay greater than 2 hours on a 45min ETE flight.
On holiday to Turkey with Air 2 bob happy crew and on time both ways.
BA can only market themselves in the premium sector if they can deliver, and at the moment they cannot. I feel sorry for the aircrew who work for this shambolic organisiation.
On holiday to Turkey with Air 2 bob happy crew and on time both ways.
BA can only market themselves in the premium sector if they can deliver, and at the moment they cannot. I feel sorry for the aircrew who work for this shambolic organisiation.
Controversial, moi?
We share your concerns.
A couple of points about delays though.
It is company policy that we tell you the truth about the cause of the delays. At LHR airfield congestion, ATC slot delays, baggage having to be offloaded due passenger not appearing at gate, etc, etc, continually cause delays. We know that punctuality is at the top of regular travellers wish lists. For that reason it it high on our list of priorities.
It would be my guess that less than 10% of delays into or out of LHR are due to causes that we can control.
We have to endure these problems day in day out and up to four times a day.
A couple of points about delays though.
It is company policy that we tell you the truth about the cause of the delays. At LHR airfield congestion, ATC slot delays, baggage having to be offloaded due passenger not appearing at gate, etc, etc, continually cause delays. We know that punctuality is at the top of regular travellers wish lists. For that reason it it high on our list of priorities.
It would be my guess that less than 10% of delays into or out of LHR are due to causes that we can control.
We have to endure these problems day in day out and up to four times a day.
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Ok maybe you pilots do deserve a raise. But maybe we should wait until the company has sorted itself out a bit more first? Everyone at B.A. is losing out at the moment! PAX included. You can't bite the hand that feeds you. We're all struggling with our lots at B.A. if the pilots suddenly get a magical windfall I think there will be a lot of bad feeling throughout the company especially as we are all giving up so much (PAX especially!). I don't have any imeadiate solutions but I reckon pushing for a more cash right now is a bad move.
Instead - push for more sackings at waterslide!!!!
Instead - push for more sackings at waterslide!!!!
Mistrust in Management
Shadowpurser
Benchmark your earnings with other airlines. We have benchmarked ours, and find that we are well behind. Cabin crew in BA are streets ahead of most other airlines. BA recruit from Virgin, BMI, easy Jet, Go etc.
<<We're all struggling with our lots at B.A.>> I think you may find that as cabin crew you are well ahead.
Good luck to you, but remember luck will not last forever.
<<if the pilots suddenly get a magical windfall I think there will be a lot of bad feeling throughout the company especially as we are all giving up so much>> Oh deary, deary me.
By the way what is it that you are giving up? I haven't seen our cabin crew give up a scrap so far.
However I do agree with you with regard to Waterside
Regards
Exeng
<<We're all struggling with our lots at B.A.>> I think you may find that as cabin crew you are well ahead.
Good luck to you, but remember luck will not last forever.
<<if the pilots suddenly get a magical windfall I think there will be a lot of bad feeling throughout the company especially as we are all giving up so much>> Oh deary, deary me.
By the way what is it that you are giving up? I haven't seen our cabin crew give up a scrap so far.
However I do agree with you with regard to Waterside
Regards
Exeng
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Exeng
Are you seriously saying that you want the same Terms & Conditions as Easy and BMI? - or do you just want their headline basic pay and still keep all your allowances?
If you read some of the other threads in this forum there is a lot of talk of strike action at both these airlines by the flight crew - things are not as rosy at other British airlines as some in this forum would have you beleive. So be very careful what you wish for.
We have benchmarked ours, and find that we are well behind
If you read some of the other threads in this forum there is a lot of talk of strike action at both these airlines by the flight crew - things are not as rosy at other British airlines as some in this forum would have you beleive. So be very careful what you wish for.
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Whinge whinge whinge
The pays not enough.
The Unions are useless.
Conditions are going South.
We are all mushrooms....being kept in the dark and being fed
s++t all day.
If its all too much then lump it.
The pays not enough.
The Unions are useless.
Conditions are going South.
We are all mushrooms....being kept in the dark and being fed
s++t all day.
If its all too much then lump it.
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What have crew given up?
Well speaking from a shorthaul LGW point of view we've not given up much because we haven't got much in the first place. But i can tell you that with route cuts and nightstops going to there and backs, our earnings has have gone way down. YES as far as crew is concerned in the UK BA is the benchmark for crew and earnings, and does get people from all other airlines - BUT thats at fortress LHR. As for LGW and I suspect at other bases too it's certainly a different gravy, as things certainly have changed. I myself am now earning the same as PSR as I was as main crew a year ago some times less!. Most people at SH LGW are in the same boat too and as for LH LGW well... their lucky to get more than two flights on their roster at the moment. Crewing levels have also been reduced as well on both fleets increasing our workloads, never to be reinstated to previous levels
So the upshot? BA are certainly saving roughly about £200 per crew member at SH LGW, and we are working harder.
So the upshot? BA are certainly saving roughly about £200 per crew member at SH LGW, and we are working harder.
Mistrust in Management
Shadowpursor,
Your last statement. <<their lucky to get more than two flights on their roster at the moment. Crewing levels have also been reduced as well on both fleets increasing our workloads, never to be reinstated to previous levels>>
There seems some contradiction there in those few words, or maybe I've misunderstood.
Regards
Exeng
Your last statement. <<their lucky to get more than two flights on their roster at the moment. Crewing levels have also been reduced as well on both fleets increasing our workloads, never to be reinstated to previous levels>>
There seems some contradiction there in those few words, or maybe I've misunderstood.
Regards
Exeng
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Np exeng
LH LGW have so little work they are lucky to get 2 rostered flights a month at the moment - rest is normally 24hr sby.
Crewing levels at SH and LH LGW have been reduced - but the service hasn't - so we are all now working harder when we actually do get to fly!. The pervious crewing levels will not be brought back.
Hope that clarifies things?? Sorry if last post was badly worded.
LH LGW have so little work they are lucky to get 2 rostered flights a month at the moment - rest is normally 24hr sby.
Crewing levels at SH and LH LGW have been reduced - but the service hasn't - so we are all now working harder when we actually do get to fly!. The pervious crewing levels will not be brought back.
Hope that clarifies things?? Sorry if last post was badly worded.
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I'm sure there must be a good reason for it, but Citiexpress at MAN seem to have gone subcharter mad which can't be helping the bottom line. I flew AMS-MAN yesterday on a Titan 146 (and very nice it was too - 5 seats across rather than the 6 that I think the Citiexpress examples have IIRC), and they also seemed to have pressed a Flightline 146 and a Titan ATR into service. Seems to have been going on for a few days.
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And on and on it goes...I've been with the airlines for over 25 years and still the same old whinge goes around and around. An airline exists for what? For pilots ,engineers cabin crew , ground staff etc- to practise their skills? NO --it exists to make money, period. If you can extract (as a group) a bigger share of that dosh for yourselves then "good luck". Your employer can obviously afford to pay it. The value of each group to the employer will be determined by both market forces and the resolve of that group to look after its own interests. Thats just the way it is. At BA ,however, they have to contend with some agreements that have lead to some groups not conforming to the above . Namely- SOME BA cabin crew groups. I don't give a hoot how much they EARN but there has to be something wrong in an airline when being cabin crew is aspirational to other more qualified groups.
Am I wronger than usual?
Am I wronger than usual?