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4th Aug 2018 Junkers JU52 crashed in Switzerland

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4th Aug 2018 Junkers JU52 crashed in Switzerland

Old 13th Aug 2018, 20:09
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Eh???
Not many people know that, my friend, and even if you take issue with the terminology (but why? It is a common enough expresson) everyone knows what is meant by it and the significance of it in this case. Quite how that one petty cavil renders an entire post "utterly irrelevant" is known only to you pal - but it doesn't say much for your CRM, tolerance or powers of logic and judgement does it?

Nul points for a pointless, irrelevant snipe.
Very much appreciated your post too meleagertoo (and I didn't think any of it "irrelevant" by the mention of a downwind turn). I think this person is just exercising the usual knee-jerk black & white judgement reaction to the possibility that in using the term you're indicating you're from that die-hard aviation fraternity that swears by the belief an aircraft behaves differently (and has differing stall speeds) depending on whether you're turning into the wind or away from it. There is of course an ongoing debate with members of this fraternity where some will absolutely hang-on to this notion that an upwind turn "can save you" in circumstances where you're close to stalling whereas an equivalent downwind turn can be your undoing. What's missed in these discussions again and again is that these turns can only be termed "upwind" and "downwind" when considered in regards to reference against the terrain the aircraft is flying over and it is when a pilot falls for the trap of attempting to tighten a turn because of the perceived overshoot with reference to the ground or terrain that a "downwind turn" can be so fraught with danger.

And (from what I can assess with the obvious experience and knowledge you've presented in your post) it's this phenomena you're talking about; an aircraft close to the edge of its performance envelop in high density altitude conditions boxed in by rising terrain where a downwind turn will have the pilots likely overshooting with the radius of the turn bigger than expected resulting in them (potentially and unwittingly) pulling it tighter and into a stall. This is an accident scenario all too common, with one of the more obvious ones being where pilots stall during the turn from base onto final when dealing with a strong crosswind. They start overshooting during the turn because they didn't allow for the wind behind them and in the ensuing over-banking stall and spiral in.

The human factors you've written about and the complacency that can set in with very experienced high-hours flight crew is all too likely to have been the major contributing factor in this accident. I appreciate how you've articulated this.

Last edited by RenegadeMan; 13th Aug 2018 at 20:16. Reason: Minor grammar correction and removed "right hand" from crosswind circuit description as depends of circuit direction
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 22:28
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RenegadeMan View Post
The human factors you've written about and the complacency that can set in with very experienced high-hours flight crew is all too likely to have been the major contributing factor in this accident. I appreciate how you've articulated this.
And how exactly, given the info available, have you reached this conclusion ?
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 10:04
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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New restrictions to JU-Air flights

Sorry to start a new thread but the previous has been locked down for some reason (mods: fell free to append to existing).

The OFAC has released a few restriction for JU-Air effective immediately (sorry only found the French version). They require
  • flight level above legal minima (sorry no specifics given)
  • GPS based flight recording to retrace past routes
  • measures (again no specifics) insuring that passengers can't move in the cabin during flight

Although nothing explicit one can read between the lines...
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Old 16th Aug 2018, 10:51
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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There are some eerily similar circumstances between this crash and the Convair in SA. Highly experienced pilots allowing risky behaviour they otherwise would never allow in their professional worlds.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 09:52
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Initial Ju 52 report out

https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...hte/HB-HOT.pdf

Thread was locked so couldn't add it.


''The Swiss Transportation Safety Investigation Board (STSB) issued a preliminary report on the August 4 accident involving a historic Junkers Ju-52/3m accident.

The Ju-52 aircraft, operated by Ju-Air, crashed into the western slope of Piz Segnas, Switzerland, at an elevation of 2540 m. All 17 passengers and three crew members were killed.

The brief report stated that the aircraft flew on a northeasterly course into the basin southwest of Piz Segnas. Towards the north end of the basin, it began a left turn, which developed into a descending spiral trajectory. A short time later, the aircraft collided with the ground almost vertically and at high speed.''
https://news.aviation-safety.net/201...ountain-basin/
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 09:57
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Very light preliminary I'd say...

The two other planes are flying again since last weekend. They had only few cancelations of reserved flights. Out of the 25 pilots pool one has demanded some time out.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 10:03
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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BAZL ordered doubled minimum altitudes, GPS position logging for all flights and passengers seated and belted during all flights all the time. It's good that they can continue flying.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 10:39
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Here is a translation of the linked Swiss report dated 15Aug:

An investigation.
Place, date and time: 500 m southeast of Segnaspass (GR), August 4, 2018, 16:56 LT
Aircraft
Enrolment: HB-Hot
Samples: Junkers aircraft and engine Works AG, Ju-52/3m G4E
Holder: Association of Friends of the Swiss Air Force (VFL),
Via Landstrasse 271, 8600 Dübendorf
Owner: Swiss Air Force, P.O. Box 1072, 8600 Dübendorf
Pilots: 2
Cabin Crew: 1
Passengers: 17
Flight:
Flight rules: Visual flight Rules-VFR
Mode of operation: lucrative
Begin of departure: Locarno (LSZL)
Destination: Dübendorf (LSMD)
Damage:
Crew: 3 fatally injured
Passengers: 17 fatally injured
Third parties: None
Aircraft: Destroyed
Third-party damage: low Floor damage
Short Description: The plane flew on a northeast course in the basin Southwest
of the Piz Segnas. Against the northern end of the basin
It started a left turn that turned into a spiral trajectory
Developed against the bottom. A short time later, the plane collided almost
perpendicular to the terrain.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 10:44
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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The report seems to make a few things more established. I note that there is no reference to "high speed". Unsurprisingly, there is no real analysis here.

OAP

Last edited by Onceapilot; 23rd Aug 2018 at 11:02.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 20:27
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Update: Report on 4 Aug 2018 JU52 Accident

A report has been issued by the Swiss authorities about the accident, including details about corrosion in parts of the airframe. I believe that operation of the type has been stopped at the present time. Obviously, a better translation of the document will help further understanding.

OAP
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 20:37
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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This document is an interim accident report but, I am afraid I cannot post a translation. I will attempt to post the internet address.
https://www.sust.admin.ch/inhalte/AV...B-HOT_ZB_D.pdf

OAP

Last edited by Onceapilot; 20th Nov 2018 at 21:16. Reason: Update to confirm interim report
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 20:56
  #232 (permalink)  
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Sad story . This interim report basically does not talk about the accident itself but about the corrosion found on the aircraft ,and despite the conclusion that the corrosion had nothing to do with the accident grounded the 2 other aircraft ;
11. Airworthiness certificate of the HB-HOP aircraft of 7 June 2007
will be withdrawn from now and until further notice
12. Airworthiness certificate of the HB-HOS aircraft of 7 June 2007
will be withdrawn from now and until further notice.
13. The aircraft HB-HOP and HB-HOS may with immediate effect
no longer be put into circulation.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 21:09
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding with help from google.
Significant shortcomings in maintenance, management and parts inventory. Exfoliation corrosion in floor/wing attach area. Had cylinders salvaged from 1941 wreck? Engine two/three new cam discs found with damage, same in sister ships. Fuel/oil lines 30 years old!
Poor condition how ever, not related to the accident.
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Old 20th Nov 2018, 21:14
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks ATC and cappt, an "interim report".

OAP
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 16:01
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding with help from google.
Significant shortcomings in maintenance, management and parts inventory. Exfoliation corrosion in floor/wing attach area. Had cylinders salvaged from 1941 wreck? Engine two/three new cam discs found with damage, same in sister ships. Fuel/oil lines 30 years old!
Poor condition how ever, not related to the accident.
Quite correct, cappt!
The intermediate report contains some more interesting details. Temperature was ISA + 16 and all engines were delivering power. The report from the accident investigation branch is not only rather damning for operator and maintenance, but also for the oversight of the Swiss Federal Office of Civil Aviation. They (FOCA) claim they could not have seen all the rotten stuff. Well, looking for instance at the picture of the fuel lines, its difficult to imagine that even a brief inspection could overlook that. Inspections nowadays are all about forms, stamps and signatures, the hardware only gets a brief glimpse. Not helpful is also the fact that operator, maintenance and engine repairs are all controlled by the same persons. And the boss now claims that the corrosion set in only after the accident.....
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 16:30
  #236 (permalink)  
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Is there no English translation available for this Report?
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 17:08
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PFR View Post
Is there no English translation available for this Report?
No, there is no official English version.
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 17:12
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PFR View Post
Is there no English translation available for this Report?
Not so far. You can copy and post the text into bing translate, page by page. The result is pidgin but, understandable. I have read that: " It crashed, 20 killed, ISA+16, no fire, unsurvivable. Subsequently, they have found corrosion, poor repairs, unregulated parts, unsegregated stock, all engines working at impact, fuel on board. The Flying permits for the other two aircraft are withdrawn. The full report will address all aspects of the accident".
It is sad reading. However, there is no attempt to describe the cause of the accident that I can find in this interim report.

OAP
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 17:16
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Happy to see this topic re-opened for posting...

There is indeed a lot of factual findings in that intérim report.

One thing I find interresting is that the engines were all the original 1939 models (I understand upgraded / more powerful engines were later fitted in the JU-52) with all about 1000h since last retrofit. I wonder what kind of actual power they could deliver.

Unless I have missed it no mention of passenger recording. Surprising.
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Old 21st Nov 2018, 17:58
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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One thing I find interresting is that the engines were all the original 1939 models (I understand upgraded / more powerful engines were later fitted in the JU-52) with all about 1000h since last retrofit. I wonder what kind of actual power they could deliver.
In an earlier interview, the CEO of Ju-Air (before the accident) said that the three engines were rated at 500 hp each, not a lot for a 10.5 t hardware. Looking at the picture of the three cylinders in the interim report, this figure may even be rather optimistic.
Unless I have missed it no mention of passenger recording. Surprising.
The accident investigation (SUST) mentioned that cameras of victims were found, but up to date could not be evaluated due to the damage sustained. So they ask now passengers on earlier similar flights if they would please submit recordings.
There is indeed no statement to the cause of this tragedy. I think they will be very careful to word it even in the final report as it might be fodder for the lawyers. There is strong sympathy for the enthusiasm of the hole outfit (understandbly) and the pilots are mostly of military background who will stick togethter like glue (also understandbly)
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