BA engine fault on Takeoff at PHX
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BA engine fault on Takeoff at PHX
Happened back in December. ATC communications video shown here.
Can someone tell me if that is an engine-out procedure that the followed. It kind of sounds like it based on their discussions with ATC.
Can someone tell me if that is an engine-out procedure that the followed. It kind of sounds like it based on their discussions with ATC.
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"He didn't declare an emergency."
Well, yeah he did, but before our European friends get all upset, here's the deal;
Over here in the colonies we never used "Mayday," we have always said we are "Declaring an Emergency."
However, we recently made the change to "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday."
But it might take some time to make the change, on both sides of the mic. Some old habits are hard to break.
I'm sure this controller has been told and is now up to date.
Well, yeah he did, but before our European friends get all upset, here's the deal;
Over here in the colonies we never used "Mayday," we have always said we are "Declaring an Emergency."
However, we recently made the change to "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday."
But it might take some time to make the change, on both sides of the mic. Some old habits are hard to break.
I'm sure this controller has been told and is now up to date.
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Not hilarious at all to pilots knowledgeable about this stuff. Obviously, condensed from real time.
Probably best to delete your post.
Actually, if you listen carefully to that video(around4:42) the controller appears to say that "They DID declare an emergency" but it also sounds like "DIDN'T". Seeing as the aircraft did declare an emergency and the controller likely knows what MAYDAY means, I suspect that the transcript has a typo and it should stat DID.
Probably best to delete the rest of your post.
Probably best to delete your post.
Actually, if you listen carefully to that video(around4:42) the controller appears to say that "They DID declare an emergency" but it also sounds like "DIDN'T". Seeing as the aircraft did declare an emergency and the controller likely knows what MAYDAY means, I suspect that the transcript has a typo and it should stat DID.
Probably best to delete the rest of your post.
Very professional done from ATC and BA pilots. ATC made a very clear RT with slow good pronounced language. The pilots had their handful with the added engine failure checklist. Funny that ATC asked for the fuel quantity in lbs again after they got it in tons. I would assume that ARFF could do the simple math.
Only half a speed-brake
JS, you're wrong. Clearly "Didn't".
The amount of misunderstanding among native speaking guys makes this an absolute case-study.
Imagine their faces, after having asked to dump - too heavy to land, one engine gone. Then this comes in:
"Speedbird 38P heavy, are you able to climb to 10 thousand feet - or not?"
"BAW38P heavy, yeah - now we can climb to 10 thousand feet it that helps you out, sir. And we're happy to downgrade the Mayday at the moment, 'cause you're obviously helping us out the best you can."
"I'm sorry 38P heavy, say again the last part?"
"You can, ... we don't ..., I'm guessing we've downgraded from our Mayday status. That's all, BAW38P."
"Downgrade a Mayday status?"
"Well, I am happy you're helping us out, so you know we have an issue. And we're ... we're obviously coming back in. Over"
The amount of misunderstanding among native speaking guys makes this an absolute case-study.
Imagine their faces, after having asked to dump - too heavy to land, one engine gone. Then this comes in:
"Speedbird 38P heavy, are you able to climb to 10 thousand feet - or not?"
"BAW38P heavy, yeah - now we can climb to 10 thousand feet it that helps you out, sir. And we're happy to downgrade the Mayday at the moment, 'cause you're obviously helping us out the best you can."
"I'm sorry 38P heavy, say again the last part?"
"You can, ... we don't ..., I'm guessing we've downgraded from our Mayday status. That's all, BAW38P."
"Downgrade a Mayday status?"
"Well, I am happy you're helping us out, so you know we have an issue. And we're ... we're obviously coming back in. Over"
Speedbird clearly stated an emergency with Mayday Mayday Mayday, and it was understood by ATC. Since they where coming back for a 3 engine MLW landing the airport had ARFF out. ATC did clear the airspace and runway for Speedbird. ATC will most likely not downgrade a Mayday in such a situation, why should they? ATC knows that the pilots have a very high workload in this situation, so they do not go in semantics. What need to be done was clear and ATC helped as much as they could. Communicate comes always third for the pilots.
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I'm right....Clearly "DID".
Which makes sense with what he stated right after that. "I would assume that they are going to need to return" which is based on the fact that they DID declare an emergency.
And, yes...American controllers do know what MAYDAY means. So you are wrong there as well.
A good example though of how words can be misinterpreted even by native speakers.
But I do agree with you that there was some statements at one point by BA that were not particularly easy to understand in terms of what they were saying.
Which makes sense with what he stated right after that. "I would assume that they are going to need to return" which is based on the fact that they DID declare an emergency.
And, yes...American controllers do know what MAYDAY means. So you are wrong there as well.
A good example though of how words can be misinterpreted even by native speakers.
But I do agree with you that there was some statements at one point by BA that were not particularly easy to understand in terms of what they were saying.
Only half a speed-brake
No JS, you are reading it the opposite way around. Clearly didn't. And the since the ATC is confused why no emergency declared at that point - he feels like there should be one - that leads to the fuzzy statement assume he'd come back. Why? Because either the poor ATCO or his colleague before completely missed the 3x MAYDAY call.
Every single thing the BA said made perfect sense (to a pilot) and they went out of their way to be the smallest possible pain they could. BTW your profile is a bit economical with details, are you a pilot?
I'm sure the ATC did an illustrious job in their field - i.e. keeping the traffic separated (!!!) - but on a communication side, they're half clueless of what the BA guys job was. [Or did they expect them to fly on three back to the UK ?
Fair enough]
This one is a must in class to show how the fluent English speaking pilots got it wrong (when scared to death, literally):
For a light amusement during the break, that BAW/PHX recording is perfect.
Another show point at 09:03:
"Can you let me know what your fuel left is?"
"Er, we've got - there's about 54 tonnes of fuel. So we've just come down to max landing weight. And if possible, we'd like to stop the rollout towards the end of the runway, sir?"
"Oh yeah, you said how many? how, You said how many pounds of fuel?
"Sorry, how many what, sor?
"How many pounds, or can you give us that in time? Or is it just easier with - you said 5,400 pounds?
"50 thousand kilos"
"50 thousand kilos, okay".
The boring option:
"BAW report endurance.
"Just a sec, sir. ... About 3 hours, one or two G/As included."
"Copy 38P"
Every single thing the BA said made perfect sense (to a pilot) and they went out of their way to be the smallest possible pain they could. BTW your profile is a bit economical with details, are you a pilot?
I'm sure the ATC did an illustrious job in their field - i.e. keeping the traffic separated (!!!) - but on a communication side, they're half clueless of what the BA guys job was. [Or did they expect them to fly on three back to the UK ?
Fair enough]This one is a must in class to show how the fluent English speaking pilots got it wrong (when scared to death, literally):
Another show point at 09:03:
"Can you let me know what your fuel left is?"
"Er, we've got - there's about 54 tonnes of fuel. So we've just come down to max landing weight. And if possible, we'd like to stop the rollout towards the end of the runway, sir?"
"Oh yeah, you said how many? how, You said how many pounds of fuel?
"Sorry, how many what, sor?
"How many pounds, or can you give us that in time? Or is it just easier with - you said 5,400 pounds?
"50 thousand kilos"
"50 thousand kilos, okay".
The boring option:
"BAW report endurance.
"Just a sec, sir. ... About 3 hours, one or two G/As included."
"Copy 38P"
Only half a speed-brake
Speedbird clearly stated an emergency with Mayday Mayday Mayday, and it was understood by ATC. Since they where coming back for a 3 engine MLW landing the airport had ARFF out. ATC did clear the airspace and runway for Speedbird. ATC will most likely not downgrade a Mayday in such a situation, why should they? ATC knows that the pilots have a very high workload in this situation, so they do not go in semantics. What needs to be done was clear and ATC helped as much as they could. Communicate comes always third for the pilots.
Calling MAYDAY (imminent danger to life) for a surge-shutdown is too much and would attract a negative remark with many TREs and Flt OPS standards departments. It's probably a BA policy (a reasonable approach against splitting hairs) to declare one for any power plant issues, and then downgrade. Which brings a question Can you really downgrade/cancel a MAYDAY? What do we expect the ATC, ARFF, MED and Airport OPS teams would do at that point?. Pull the red button back up and wire-seal it, climb the greasy pole to bunks?.
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Was there any major misunderstanding between pilot and ATC? I think not.
No need to get academic or stuck on semantics.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
No need to get academic or stuck on semantics.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
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Speedbird clearly stated an emergency with Mayday Mayday Mayday, and it was understood by ATC. Since they where coming back for a 3 engine MLW landing the airport had ARFF out. ATC did clear the airspace and runway for Speedbird. ATC will most likely not downgrade a Mayday in such a situation, why should they? ATC knows that the pilots have a very high workload in this situation, so they do not go in semantics. What need to be done was clear and ATC helped as much as they could. Communicate comes always third for the pilots
The MAYDAY-MAYDAY-MAYDAY call is quite clear at 1:54 at which point the speedbird crew tell ATC what their initial intentions are in a clear, calm manner, doesn't seem like any panic or uncertainty, to me at least, from either the crew or ATC, sounds almost like a routine event.
Well done to all involved
Well done to all involved
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What inane comments from the usual armchair experts! Remember that this is not an everyday event for those concerned and that the recording you hear is greatly condensed giving a distorted impression. On the whole it was handled well. And just as the FD crew are busy with a multitude of things so is ATC.
Only half a speed-brake
During a real-life event we perform between 60-80% of the trained standard, at best. It matters to some, what the trained standard is. And knowing where the 40-20% got lost too. For the next crew who will need to dodge the bullet. For the controller when the same happens to A/C with a strong East Asian accent, and Level 4 ICAO English.
The ATC surely did their job well both in the air and on the ground, and missing the 3xM call did not stop them, which underscores a lot. Safely handled with margins.
Between PHX ATC and BA long-haul crew, with an event as simple as surge with ENG shutdown on a quad, seamless is the standard you'd hope to see. This was the best of both worlds encounter but ended with a lot more training material than appropriate.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 11th Jun 2018 at 10:43.
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It depresses me sometimes that some Flight Sim warriors on here think they actually know what they're talking about, do not have the ability to correctly listen to, let alone understand, anything more complicated than a 12 minute odd audio clip etc. Yet still feel free to gob off with insults and inaccuracies about what actually happened.
And one wonders why professional pilots get paid so much .. might have something to do with being responsible for 350 odd PAX travelling in close proximity to 54 tons of flammable liquid in a sick aircraft !!!!!
And one wonders why professional pilots get paid so much .. might have something to do with being responsible for 350 odd PAX travelling in close proximity to 54 tons of flammable liquid in a sick aircraft !!!!!
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How much combustible stuff is there?
(Don't know if it's really useful to know but that's the standard two questions asked by ATC when there is an emergency)
And the protocol training for ATC should change the question to: How much fuel do you have on board? In kilograms or pounds please!
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It's amazing the number of folk I taught in the simulator prioritised noise abatement rather than obstacle clearance in an engine-out situation. After all, in a twin you've lost nearly half the noise! That's why it's important that there should be no ambiguity about what you're doing and making sure ATC know!
Cargosales: I worked on the theory that if we get home it follows that the rest of crew and passengers will have successful a outcome. If the we had three or three hundred the responsibilities are just the same
Cargosales: I worked on the theory that if we get home it follows that the rest of crew and passengers will have successful a outcome. If the we had three or three hundred the responsibilities are just the same
Last edited by MaximumPete; 11th Jun 2018 at 10:51. Reason: Adding a bit
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You will note I praised the crew. My criticism is reserved for the ATCO. I do not recall being taught A N C with C being convert fuel figures in any of my LPC's. It was a daft request at an inappropriate time. Do it yourself if you need it that badly. You are welcome to confirm the validity of my license and type rating via PM. Sincerely, flight sim warrior.
And I seriously agree with you about overloading a pilot, already in a very stressful situation, with inane and downright daft questions that someone on the ground should be able to work out in seconds. But to be fair to the ATCOs, they too are under enormous pressure. And they may not have the time to think it through or do the maths.
It's not limited to aviation but there is a point at which the human brain simply 'overloads' and cannot cope with anything more complicated that 'what is 2 + 2?' And in this specific instance that applies equally to pilots and ATCOs.
Just my 2p worth
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It strikes me the biggest issue here is not who declared what or how many pounds there in a kilo, it is apparent failure to communicate between the various ATC sectors. As the flight is passed/handed over from one sector to another, one would expect the controller handing off to include relevant info on the flight, such as the declared emergency etc. It sounded to me as if Approach hadn't updated Tower on the intention to dump fuel and return to Phoenix.