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Heathrow expansion

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Heathrow expansion

Old 6th Jun 2018, 07:51
  #21 (permalink)  

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I don't think anyone is disputing the need for another runway in the southeast, just that LHR is the wrong place for it. Other options could well be Gatwick, Stansted, or (should I open a can of worms?) Boris Island.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 08:10
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Herod View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing the need for another runway in the southeast, just that LHR is the wrong place for it.
Why would anyone want to transit in a city with two airports and a couple of hours road/rail transport between them ?

The idea of Boris Island would be a joke - 40/50 miles away from the area that people want to come to which is London.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 08:10
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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If we were starting with a clean sheet I'd agree totally; my vote would be for Boris Island. But we're not. It's years, decades, down the line. Starting the process afresh for an alternative site means kicking the can, already far overdue, years back down the road. It's not a theoretical debating exercise, the capacity is desperately needed now, not in 15 or 20 years.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 09:48
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rationalfunctions View Post
Don't underestimate this type of transfer passengers - they help to sustain the economic viability of many routes. Or put another way, if due to additional costs/taxation for these pax it is more profitable to operate routes through other European hubs the UK may lose some of their US and European connectivity.
If the routes are unsustainable without transit passengers, we should free up the slots for flights that DO generate income for the UK. We don't need 29 flights/day to New York. Why not an hourly service and give 10 slots to new routes? This way we increase connectivity, to new cities.

And some decent rail lines to Heathrow - compared to AMS it's embarassing. West to Bristol and North to Bhm/Leeds/Manchester at least. There's another 9 slots I've just freed up for you
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 11:02
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes View Post
If the routes are unsustainable without transit passengers, we should free up the slots for flights that DO generate income for the UK. We don't need 29 flights/day to New York. Why not an hourly service and give 10 slots to new routes? This way we increase connectivity, to new cities.

And some decent rail lines to Heathrow - compared to AMS it's embarassing. West to Bristol and North to Bhm/Leeds/Manchester at least. There's another 9 slots I've just freed up for you
Agreed in principle. However the market does the talking, especially when operating at capacity, so my opinion is that expansion is required to really make a difference in growing connectivity
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 11:11
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes View Post
If the routes are unsustainable without transit passengers, we should free up the slots for flights that DO generate income for the UK. We don't need 29 flights/day to New York. Why not an hourly service and give 10 slots to new routes? This way we increase connectivity, to new cities.

And some decent rail lines to Heathrow - compared to AMS it's embarassing. West to Bristol and North to Bhm/Leeds/Manchester at least. There's another 9 slots I've just freed up for you
LHR to NYC might well be the single most lucrative route in the world. You are correct they donít need 29 flights a day. They probably need closer to 50.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 11:48
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes View Post
If the routes are unsustainable without transit passengers, we should free up the slots for flights that DO generate income for the UK. We don't need 29 flights/day to New York. Why not an hourly service and give 10 slots to new routes? This way we increase connectivity, to new cities.
As others have said..follow the money..

Various airlines operating out of LHR try diversifying from time to time but ultimately the banker has been the likes of LHR-JFK/EWR...

Now if you want to encourage connectivity out of airport which is slot limited you are going to have to encourage airlines to take a gamble, pull resources off a lucrative route and try out open of these "new" city pairs........
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 12:28
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Heathrow expansion with a 3rd runway will not happen. The NoX figures will prevent it. Even Heathrow airport itself in its 2014 report on NOX said that one has to assume zero traffic growth, and herculean other changes dreamt up in its Mitigation Strategy document, to get the NOX down to legal levels. They have not updated this report as I guess they've lost their flying pigs.
It is also advocating moving the NOX meters to where they won't find any NOX. Clever, huh!.

As to noise, while airlines, BA in particular, continue to use RR engined 747s the noise will not decrease. It still has c 36 of them, with, apparently, something like 34 "in storage" (??) (Airfleets.net). They are supposed to be all gone in 6 years time. And pigs might fly.

The real solution? - Build Boris Island with 21st century rail links and flog off LHR to the highest bidder to use for offices/housing/whatever. In the meantime, build LGW2 free from public subsidy, (and flatten the Belgrano)
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 13:00
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
Heathrow expansion with a 3rd runway will not happen. The NoX figures will prevent it.
Surely the NoX figures are the same if you build an airport on the West of London or the East - the effect on the environment from the same amount of aircraft is going to be identical.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 13:08
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Full of narrowbodies and now turbo-props , drop APD then people fly direct rather than to european low tax hub then long haul !
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 14:19
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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A few facts:
Anyone that has flown over London on a clear night can identify LHR: Two parallel runways , east/west with a dark parallel area to the north of it.
The real-estate has already been purchased , I suppose.
By the time the first aircraft takes off on the new rwy, all the big noise makers are gone.
( Ca 20 years ago we transited from Norway to Winnipeg and had to have a night at an airport hotel. In the morning we were up and getting ready on a nice and sunny day, then this THUNDER started. Me and my 4 year old ran to the window and got a great view of the BA Concorde taking off. All worth the expensive hotel.Now that was NOISE!!!)
I also do not understand why the parallel offset rwy proposed in STN is not build with a 300kmh speed train.
EVERY new airport build in the world has a Downtown highspeed rail connection.
We opened ours in October 1998 at GRM Gardermoen , now called OSL after great protracted controversy , sabotage of metdata for alternate site Hurum and a murder!!!
But all agreed it had to be done. So we did. Simples.
Anyone that has been to OSL knows that this is well functioning airport, with less then 23 min train the 55km to Downtown Oslo, every 15 minutes.

Anyway, I feel sorry for You Brits, and please take this as constructive criticism, but, You seem to be experts on other lands and peoples problems , and totally unable to see what to do in Your own back yard. Try at least to approach modern standards.
Its all well and good in small villages to stay in the past and attract the odd tourist , but The Empire that brought transport to many a corner of the Earth is now stacking inbound traffic into the stratosphere inbound Heathrow.

And one last on, that I could regret," After a Hard Brexit there will be no need".

Anyway
Good luck
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 14:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
BA in particular, continue to use RR engined 747s the noise will not decrease. It still has c 36 of them, with, apparently, something like 34 "in storage" (??) (Airfleets.net). They are supposed to be all gone in 6 years time. And pigs might fly.
So according to “airfleets” BA had 70 744’s on their books? Probably a good job you put the ?? in there. I thought at it’s peak the BA fleet was in the upper 50’s (?58). As far as the retired airframes go I’m not sure what is meant by “storing” ... AFAIK BA haven’t got 34 intact 744’s on a shelf somewhere, certainly some of the former BA airframes went to the desert for good.

I’d agree aviation is a funny old game, you never known what’s around the corner (cf. the current 788 problems) but looking at the 788 and A350 delivery schedules, plus the way internal pilot postings are being promulgated and handled if BA do have any 744’s left in another 6 years it’ll be a handful of any at all.

Last edited by wiggy; 6th Jun 2018 at 15:56.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 14:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Noise complaints affecting LHR - 3rd runway marathon

"13,396 noise complaints lodged in the first three months of this year."

Dreadful -Poor Local Residents.... BUT Wait a sec.

"Nearly two-thirds of those complaints came from the same 10 people - making up a whopping 8,744 complaints between them"

Now i seldom read red tops (papers one reads if there's nothing else) but this serial complaint caught my eye when searching on the internet for noise complaints in my area of SW London.

https://www.express.co.uk/travel/art...usiest-airport
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 14:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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My local airport last year generated 190 noise complaints about flights which hadn't yet taken off! The duty nimbys hadn't updated their computers to clock change. Again, over 1300 complaints from just three individuals. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them are contributing to this thread, particularly those accepting the need but demanding it be anywhere but LHR.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 15:04
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Angry Thank goodness he didn't mention Luton

Originally Posted by Herod View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing the need for another runway in the southeast, just that LHR is the wrong place for it. Other options could well be Gatwick, Stansted, or (should I open a can of worms?) Boris Island.
I thought for one awful moment I might see Luton on your list. Terrible place and getting worse for passengers the more they do to it.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 16:24
  #36 (permalink)  

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Hi modelflyer. Nope, not Luton, and I did say Boris Island would open a can of worms. That was just to do that very thing. Let's discuss Gatwick and Stansted, and decent rail links.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 16:27
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Noise ..... What noise

Having grown up in Cranford (~ 1 mile back from the threshold of what was then 28R) in the era of B707, DC8, VC10, Conc etc. I know what noise is! I occasionally go back to the Cranford area and the noise level is so much lower these days, so I would suggest that the overall disruption to life is far less now than it was 30 - 40 years ago; however if you move from an area with no aircraft to the Heathrow area then of course there will be more noise than you are used to, but it was your choice to move.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 16:29
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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As far better solution UK wide solution would be a new airport in Northamptonshire/Buckinghamshire area in the vicinity of the high speed rail HS2 route with links to it.
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 16:54
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Blue side up

Well done , you got to the heart of the matter in one sentence.
we in the UK are so great at telling everyone else what to do but cannot do it ourselves. practising and preaching.!

The area north of LHR is extremely underpopulated compared with most of west London and includes agricultural land , gravel workings and alot of wasteland. Why , because just for once someone back in the 50s thought maybe one day they will need another runway. So the space is there already not all of it but a lot.

As for the build a runway at LGW or MAN they just cont get it do they . All big cities need an interchange airport where transit passengers are a significant proportion of users but tis not just about proving that service adding these to O&D pax and you can justify new routes. . Another runway at LGW just means more Easyjet and they only fly to Europe the land we hate and despise so much apparently. No one in their right mind is going to travel from LGW to LHR let alone Manchester and as for Boris island I think the whole country maybe even the whole world knows anything proposed by that idiot cannot possibly have any merit . How would all the immense number of business people who live in the LHR catchment area get to the Isle of Sheppy -high speed train maybe , by 2025 that will cost about the same a cheap Y ticket to JFK before you even get on the plane. And as for noise pollution-hello what do you think those shiny silver things flying over every day are doing
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 06:25
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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When a third runway was first mooted for LHR BA were all in favour as it would grant them more landing slots and the ability to grow. Have you noticed now that BA seem to be a bit more reticent about the proposed 3rd runway. Maybe they have just realised that Waterworld is slap bang in the middle of it. So BA are going to have to move to a new HQ wonder where their going to find the land? Madrid maybe!
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