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Old 7th Oct 2017, 15:52   #1 (permalink)
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AC-66 has to repeatly declare MAYDAY to ATC before given clearance

Surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...to-ind-441893/

Incident: Canada B789 near Hyderabad on Sep 19th 2017, ATC tries to divert aircraft despite several Mayday calls following two diversions
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 17:12   #2 (permalink)
 
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TSB report
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TSB Report#A17F0230: C-FGEI, a Boeing 787-9 aircraft operated by Air Canada, was conducting flight ACA46 from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Mumbai, India (VABB) with 14 crew members and 177 passengers on board. During the descent into VABB, ATC cancelled the approach due to a runway excursion by another aircraft. After holding for one hour, the flight crew elected to divert to their alternate airport. Shortly thereafter, ATC notified ACA46 that the alternate airport could not accommodate them because they were at maximum capacity. The flight crew consulted with the operator’s Operational Control Centre (OCC) and the decision was made to divert to Hyderabad, India (VOHS). Enroute to VOHS, ATC notified the flight crew that VOHS was also at maximum capacity and could not accommodate them as well. The flight crew declared a MAYDAY due to their low fuel situation and were given a straight-in approach to Runway 09L where they landed without further event. The operator reported that ATC continued trying to divert the flight or attempted to place it in another hold. The flight crew had to declare MAYDAY four times before ATC cleared them for the approach into VOHS. The TSB is in contact with India’s AAIB.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 17:18   #3 (permalink)
 
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Flight was AC46 CYYZ-VABB (or "AC-46", as Avherald quaintly renders flight numbers), not AC66.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 18:02   #4 (permalink)
 
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Dear God. I feel for the crews who operate in that area..
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 21:00   #5 (permalink)
 
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After declaring a Mayday, the time for requesting clearances has passed. If you don't get speedy cooperation from ATC, you inform them where you are going.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 21:20   #6 (permalink)
 
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Luckily in many parts of the world it doesn't come to this. I too feel for this crew, not a nice place to be.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 21:38   #7 (permalink)
 
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Indeed, there are some places where you 'just do it' and argue on the ground.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 01:36   #8 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
Dear God. I feel for the crews who operate in that area..
Indeed.

I also feel for westerners that venture into that cesspool.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 02:34   #9 (permalink)
 
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Well done to the crew for dealing with a super stressful situation after such a long flight.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 04:05   #10 (permalink)
 
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Gray hairs for everyone involved, make it a double.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 04:27   #11 (permalink)
 
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I’d flown up from Bangalore one night in Challenger. We were directed to do a 360 which became a “hold at present position, legs your discretion”, no EFC. 45 minutes later directed toward Mumbai, when we finally got to Arrival Control, asked for umpteenth time for EFC. The controller simply said something like, “it’s 3 minutes per arrival and you’re number 12 or 13”. About that tiime, a local left the radar maze with, “I have to divert to Ahmadabad now and am proceeding direct, request clearance”. Controller argued for him to stay, he was now #5 for approach. Captain simply said, “you said that 20 minutes, we’re enroute to Ahmadabad now”. There were flashing lights everywhere.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 08:01   #12 (permalink)
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Would love to hear the tapes as the media reports are a bit contradictory. But this seems to indicate once more that both Controllers and perhaps aircrew are not fully conversant with Emergency communications .
Minimum fuel = Mayday . Period.
Clearances (authorizations) are not needed in emergency.

An airport filled to capacity can be a reason to refuse a diversion request under normal circumstances, , as the aircraft will not have full support , proper parking space or even stairs , but definitively that does not apply to a flight in emergency. That part the Indian CAA should re-enforce to its controllers.
No-one should have to repeat 4x a Mayday to get attention.
My advice is for crew to always to squawk 7700 when you encounter resistance in an emergency , this generally calm down the other side...if they have radar that is .If not , the other option is switch to 121,5.
Telling ATC what you are doing as opposed to waiting for an ATC instruction is also an option.

Last edited by ATC Watcher; 8th Oct 2017 at 08:04. Reason: typos
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 12:51   #13 (permalink)
 
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I suspect they are conversant - they just have experience that suggests that some people abuse the MAYDAY call..................
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 13:01   #14 (permalink)
 
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Indian ATC has definitely a problem!
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 13:07   #15 (permalink)
 
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Air Canada with a 789....that is a story in itself.

The decision to divert after an hour in hold, why was that? (especially with the typical capacity issues there)
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 13:32   #16 (permalink)
 
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Had to declare a Mayday to Spainish ATC once to get their attention and a direct routing, we had a heart attack victim which they knew all about but ignored our requests for a direct to the alternate.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 13:42   #17 (permalink)
 
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Do they have GPS?

I guess my question is, and probably what they were thinking at HYD; (and Heathrow Harrys comment)

Diverting to HYD, calling mayday 4 times enroute with low fuel, why didnt the ac just call mayday and land at original destination?

Last edited by underfire; 8th Oct 2017 at 13:53.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 14:19   #18 (permalink)
 
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The reason for the cancelled landing clearance is stated in one of the links in the first post. Probably this one: https://avherald.com/h?article=4ae9377c&opt=0

I don't know Mumbai airport, but AFAIK, the normal procedure when approaching reserve fuel while in a holding is to divert instead of declaring an emergency. Usually, with correct flight planning, that should be the safest option. However, when you arrive at your alternate and get told, "you can't land, we're full", things get interesting.

On the other hand, you, underfire, AFAIR are a professional pilot and should know better than me... ;-)

(Disclaimer: I'm just an SLF)
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 14:44   #19 (permalink)
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RealUlli :
Quote:
get told, "you can't land, we're full", things get interesting
This is where listening to the conversation would help determine who said what or misunderstood who. Airport full means gates and parking positions are full . an Airport decision .Nothing to do with ATC. That does not mean ATC can't land aircraft , they just won't be able to gets services. Happens relatively often , especially with massive diversions , due weather, blocked runway , terrorism , etc... Google Teneriffe 1977 or Halifax 9/11 if you want to see photos of examples. Safety first.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 15:37   #20 (permalink)
 
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Maybe the Air Canada crew speaking Canadian confused the British English speaking controllers? Eh?
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