US Dept of Commerce slaps 220% tax on Bombardier c series

[donotdespisethesnake]

Originally Posted by vapilot2004

However, one part of the case remains valid regarding selling the aircraft to Delta for less than cost. There are EU countries that explicitly deny market "dumping" and Bombardier's Delta deal would have been in violation of such laws.

Not necessarily.

EU anti-dumping policy

The EU investigates anti-dumping claims. Specifically, the investigation must show that:

1. there is dumping by the exporting producers in the country/countries concerned
2. material injury has been suffered by the Community industry concerned
3. there is a causal link between the dumping and injury found
4. the imposition of measures is not against the Community interest.

[vapilot2004]

I found it odd that Boeing brought such a case against a "friendly" manufacturer and supporting government which remains an important ally and neighbor. Obviously the C series is not a direct competitor to the 737, the closest aircraft in size and capability.

I have heard from those familiar with the Delta deal, however, that the extreme price undercut by Bombardier was what incensed Boeing negotiators and led to studying the legal case. This set a precedent that went against their ideas of fair competition.

Selling below cost is a practice that is generally considered "unfair" across Western aircraft manufacturers. Even Airbus, in their (successful) quest to beat McD into submission, always had an eye on the bottom line and were required to do so by corporate governance.

All above said, I am not taking sides in this, but am glad the commission ruled against Boeing. We do not need to enter a trade war with our friendly neighbour to the north.

[RatherBeFlying]

Will the CSeries be the next 737?

The 737 has had an extraordinarily long run.

There's some very clever engineering keeping turbofans above the runway with gear legs originally long enough for turbojets, but the engine manufacturers keep making fatter fans to gain fuel efficiency

Maybe someday 737 runways and taxiways will be grooved to accommodate fatter engines

[vapilot2004]

That's funny! Accommodating the world's most ubiquitous aircraft, indeed.

[BluSdUp]

Ha Ha Ha!

What a glorious day this has been.
And to end it with this news, My goodness!

So The B-Gang managed to herd the C-Series into The A-Gangs arms for 1 dollar ( less then one US dollar).
The cancellation of the F35.
AND loosing face!

A sign of things to come?

" Bend over Trump, we got some cheap lumber coming your way!"

Ok, that was not fair.
But then again, was 292% fair,

End Rant!

[b1lanc]

So does this decision nudge Embraer to a closer tie with Boeing?

[galaxy flyer]

Only if they can convince the Brazilians to give up thier high tech pride and joy. It’ll snow on Christ the Redeemer sooner.

[ExXB]

I wonder how much money has been wasted on all this BS? I certainly hope that all appeal options have been exercised. But I suspect not.

[ZeBedie]

Of course, Boeing have in a way still won, since who would now want to pay any more than $19.6m for their C Series - the price has been set, in a very public way.

[SamYeager]

Can you point to a source other than Boeing where that price is verified? Even if true however the fact that Bombardier are now linked up with Airbus with the associated financial security and spares distribution capability would justify a higher price in future.


It's a bit like saying Boeing would have been held to their initial discounts on the first 787s. The aircraft are now not only in service, ordered by a large and credible airline (Delta) and have a large and credible aircraft manufacturer (Airbus) behind them.

[ZeBedie]

I got that from yesterday's UK Daily Telegraph. I don't think they named their source.

I appreciate that no other order is going to be at that price, but my point is that in all future Bombardier vs airline negotiations, the alleged $19.6m per jet is going to be the elephant in the room. Something that Bombardier could probably do without.

[J.O.]

History says otherwise. Air Canada got a well publicized sweet deal on 787s, better than all the sales that took place since. If you want a deal on new aircraft, the only way is to be an early adopter. Sort of opposite to the iPhone example.

[Carbon Bootprint]

Originally Posted by ZeBedie

Of course, Boeing have in a way still won, since who would now want to pay any more than $19.6m for their C Series - the price has been set, in a very public way.

Good point. I'm not feeling industrious enough to research what the MSRP is, but in any case everyone now has a benchmark to work from.

[msbbarratt]

Originally Posted by b1lanc

So does this decision nudge Embraer to a closer tie with Boeing?

I think an important question is does Embraer need Boeing, or does Boeing need Embraer? I suspect the answer now is they both need each other, but that's not Embraer's fault.

Taking on an independent Bombardier would have been a fair fight for Embraer. Just how happy are Embraer with Boeing given that they're at least partially responsible for driving Bombardier into Airbus's clutches? Not very. I wonder how many sarcastic comments there will be in that first meeting... It's not a great way for a business relationship to get going.

[tdracer]

I wonder how many sarcastic comments there will be in that first meeting... It's not a great way for a business relationship to get going.

The meetings between Boeing and Embraer have been on going on for months.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant

[SMT Member]

Originally Posted by ZeBedie

Of course, Boeing have in a way still won, since who would now want to pay any more than $19.6m for their C Series - the price has been set, in a very public way.

If that was true, every single buyer of the 737 would point to the deal United got and say 'sorry Billy-Bob, but that kite's only worth 22M, not the 85 sticker price'.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottha.../#6c344b2a30da

It gets even better, as United later on changed from the -700 to the -800 model. Which, following the logic above, would mean every single -800 should sell for around 22M, against a list price of 96M (2017 price).

I'm afraid there's people here who haven't got the foggiest ...

[Heathrow Harry]

"If you want a deal on new aircraft, the only way is to be an early adopter."

or, like Mr O'Leary, buy a bundle when everyone else is fleeing in panic..................

[galaxy flyer]

And anyone who thinks the corrupt Brazilians won’t subsidize a EMB/Boeing matchup hasn’t been paying attention.

[tsgas]

So many self acclaimed experts, but "nobody" has the actual price that DL paid for the A/C. BBD refused to release the confidential documents to the US .

[ZeBedie]

Originally Posted by Carbon Bootprint

...I'm not feeling industrious enough to research what the MSRP is,...

$80m

I'm typing this because otherwise, my message would be too short