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PIA pilot suspended after having long nap

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PIA pilot suspended after having long nap

Old 8th May 2017, 14:03
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PIA pilot suspended after having long nap

The India Times reports that PIA has recently taken a pilot off his duty. Serving as a senior pilot seems to have taken a long nap leaving a trainee pilot in charge.

Pakistani Pilot Slept For 2 Hours, Leaving Trainee To Handle An Aircraft With 305 Passengers - Indiatimes.com

20 minutes - Le pilote laisse l'apprenti oeuvrer et pique un somme - Faits divers
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Old 8th May 2017, 14:46
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From the quoted page: most pilots are given a fulfilling schedule so they don't feel sleep deprived during their flights.

So, that's all right then.
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Old 8th May 2017, 16:04
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I'm just glad its not fatigue we feel on those multi-sector days, repeated ad-nauseam. We must all appreciate those "fulfilling schedules" as rostered and carried out.


You'd almost be forgiven for thinking the reporter in said article was deliberately trying to invoke negative reactions in the travelling public, read it - IMHO - drivel.
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Old 8th May 2017, 16:16
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A pilot, captain or otherwise sleeping in a passenger seat is standard procedure for airlines that buy long range aircraft and do not take the option for manufacturer installed crew rest facilities.
Without ascertaining the facts ie. was it a 3 man crew it's drivel.

Last edited by sudden twang; 8th May 2017 at 16:26.
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Old 8th May 2017, 17:06
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It was a 3 man crew, and a trainee would be experienced, just not on LH on that type of aircraft.
SOP
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Old 8th May 2017, 19:03
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Appears from the quoted articles that it's pure drivel as it says it was a three man crew. Presumably, the chap referred to as the 'trainee' was an S/O. Shock horror as this happens all the time...
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Old 9th May 2017, 02:00
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From the Pakistani equivalent of The New York Times, The Dawn:

The sources said over 305 passengers — 293 in the economy class and 12 in the club class — were on board. During the journey, Mr Hashmi had left Mr Ali in control of the flight, while the regular first officer, Mr Yazdani, sat in the observer’s seat in the cockpit. Mr Hashmi apparently strolled over to the business class cabin, pulled a blanket over himself and went to sleep.

The sources said that the issue would have gone unnoticed but one of the passengers saw the uniformed pilot sleeping. Upon learning about who he was, the passenger raised a hue and cry and eventually the senior purser (air hostess) had to mention his complaint in her report (flight log).

According to the sources, senior purser Nazneen Haider’s report said: “Passenger (Seat 1 D) complained that while the captain was sleeping in business class cabin, I (the passenger) do not feel safe. It had been explained that two other crew members were in the cockpit but he said that he would follow the matter and write down a complaint card as well.”

Both the first officers, in a bid to protect Mr Hashmi, had not reported the incident to the management.

Initially, the airline had tried to put off an inquiry into the incident but eventually had to succumb to pressure from concerned ministry higher-ups in Islamabad and Mr Hashmi was taken off flight duty.

This is not the first time Mr Hashmi has compromised the air safety of passengers. During his tenure as PALPA president, he had many times flown long-haul transatlantic flights without resting for the prescribed duration before the start of the journey, and gotten away with it.

In June 2009, a similar incident had occurred with a European airliner whose pilot had retired to the passenger cabin, leaving the aircraft (Airbus 330) in the control of an under-training pilot, who could not negotiate an emergency and crashed the aircraft over the Atlantic Ocean killing over 200 passengers on board.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1331552

Copy of the purser's in-flight services log here:

https://twitter.com/crkamil/status/860570785190092800
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Old 9th May 2017, 02:06
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This is standard procedure and legal in many airlines, including perhaps PIA. The only reason this should be the subject of a thread on PPRuNe is to show how often the Press makes a scandal out of nothing......

The Regulations in Canada:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...s-720-2153.htm

2) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations using an aircraft other than a helicopter, and the flight crew is augmented by the addition of at least one fully qualified flight crew member, flight duty time may be extended to 15 consecutive hours if:
(amended 1998/03/23)

(a) the additional flight crew member occupies a flight deck observer seat during take-offs and landings unless the observer seat is required by an air carrier inspector, in which case, a passenger seat must be available for the flight crew member; and
(amended 1998/03/23)
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period is increased by at least 2 hours.
(amended 1998/03/23)
(3) Where a flight crew is augmented by the addition of at least one flight crew member, the division of duty and rest is balanced between the flight crew members and a flight relief facility is provided, flight duty time may be extended if:

(a) where a flight relief facility - seat is provided, the flight duty time may be extended to 17 consecutive hours, in which case the maximum flight deck duty time for any flight crew member shall be 12 hours;
(b) where a flight relief facility - bunk is provided, the flight duty time may be extended to 20 consecutive hours, in which case the maximum flight deck duty time for any flight crew member shall be 14 hours;
(c) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be at least equal to the length of the preceding flight duty time; and
(d) a maximum of 3 sectors may be completed.
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Old 9th May 2017, 02:47
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That is nowhere near New York Times quality writing. You can clearly see that the 'journalist' is making stuff up;

-The captain 'strolled' back to business class cabin.
-Two FO's didn't file a report, to protect the Captain? How about that it simply wasn't required? An how would anyone know if they filed or not.
Speculation...
-A similar incident, and then goes on th talk about the Germanwings crash, not similar at all.

Not objective writing at all.
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Old 9th May 2017, 02:48
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I've seen a lot of techniques for the seat swap with an augmented crew over the years. Some domiciles are used to having an extra pilot, in others it's a rarity on only one or two sectors and you feel like they are reinventing the wheel every time you swap seats.

Normally in my experience the relief pilot sits in the left seat when he or she replaces the captain, in the right seat when replacing the FO. I've observed the odd swap protocol mentioned in the article above where the relief pilot stays in the flight engineer memorial seat and one control seat stays empty. And, I've seen where the pilots up front divide breaks for themselves but there is not one for the relief pilot.

And, I've seen where the captain gets out, the relief pilot gets in the left seat. And the captain comes back and swaps with the FO. And, the next move, the captain tries to step over the center console back to the left seat while not snagging a trouser leg on the throttles. 'That's the way we did it on the tanker' the Air Force guys tell me.

Some airlines block a crew rest seat in the cabin for the off-duty pilot, others use rest facilities away from the pax. Back in 1999 a Delta crew flying ATL-NRT famously diverted to PDX because they weren't happy with the crew rest facility provided. Don't try this one unless you have a union card would be my advice.
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Old 9th May 2017, 02:51
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Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
That is nowhere near New York Times quality writing. You can clearly see that the 'journalist' is making stuff up;

Not objective writing at all.
Uh, like I said, that's the NYT...
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Old 9th May 2017, 03:20
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Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
-A similar incident, and then goes on th talk about the Germanwings crash, not similar at all.
Just as a point of clarification: The writer of the article in "The Dawn" was not referring to Germanwings; he / she was referring to AF447. (Having said that, I am by no means commenting on the veracity or quality of the article itself.)
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Old 9th May 2017, 05:28
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Originally Posted by Gilles Hudicourt View Post
This is standard procedure and legal in many airlines, including perhaps PIA.

Well, the suspension, if true, seems to suggest that it's not. If this was a legal "augmented crew" operation, why suspend the Captain for resting? Was the "FO" PIC qualified?
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Old 9th May 2017, 05:50
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Well, is it possible that "resting" in a Premium Class Seat at PIA is really the issue here? It's caused many a feather to be ruffled at other carriers, some even tried to fire a crew for using those precious seats to rest, when the bunks were virtually unusable due to poor air circulation, noise, and constant interruption from CC. I'm quite sure I've read many a rant due to that!
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:47
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Was the "FO" PIC qualified?
Why would they need to be. On LH the PIC can be down the back asleep, PIC has nothing to do with handling the controls.
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Old 9th May 2017, 08:08
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In the US at least, there has to be at least one pilot with at least "enroute" PIC qualifications. IOW, you can't just leave 2 FO's up front, one has to have more than FO qualifications. Maybe it's different in Pakistan. I guess my question should be does Pakistan have qualification requirements beyond that of a normal FO for augmented crews, and if so, did that FO meet them?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:08
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As SLF I have no problem with the flight deck crew having a rest in Business Class, providing there are 2 members of the crew still in control of the aircraft.

In this situation I assume that the Pilot resting would have to be woken up and return to the flightdeck if one of the other 2 members HAD to have a toilet break.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:50
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In this situation I assume that the Pilot resting would have to be woken up and return to the flightdeck if one of the other 2 members HAD to have a toilet break.
Why? With two crew ops one pilot goes for a comfort break and a cabin crew memebr enters the flight deck.

In the US at least, there has to be at least one pilot with at least "enroute" PIC qualifications. IOW, you can't just leave 2 FO's up front, one has to have more than FO qualifications.
Okay I am not familiar with US rules, or is this a company rule? Surely there can only be one PIC or are you saying the baton is passed when one goes for rest? Can you point to a document I can read? The majority of the rest of the world is not like this AFAIK. Happy to be shown otherwise.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:55
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Hong Kong requires one of the FOs to be "Relief Command Qualified."
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:04
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Okay I am not familiar with US rules, or is this a company rule? Surely there can only be one PIC or are you saying the baton is passed when one goes for rest? Can you point to a document I can read? The majority of the rest of the world is not like this AFAIK. Happy to be shown otherwise.


§121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is taking off or landing, and while it is en route.

(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty station—

(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;

(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological needs; or

(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is provided—

(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate not subject to the limitations in §61.167 of this chapter and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en route need not have completed the following pilot in command requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by §121.433(c)(1)(iii); the operating experience required by §121.434; the takeoffs and landings required by §121.439; the line check required by §121.440; and the 6-month proficiency check or simulator training required by §121.441(a)(1); and

(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent experience requirements of §121.439(b).

I'm not sure what all is involved in the "Enroute" PIC qualification. Prior to 2013, there was more of a distinction. The rules were changed in 2013 to require an ATP and full type rating to be a F O under airline ops. before that, it wasn't uncommon for an airline FO to have neither a type rating, nor an ATPL.
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