"Swiss" makes emergency landing in Germany
420 kgs gives about 28 minutes (900 kgs per hour)
Just wondering: does that imply that there was no real "extra" reserve fiuel, short of the 45 min mandatory reserve ?
--alex
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I can see what you're saying, atakacs, but I think the question is somewhat moot.
At what point does reserve fuel stop being reserve fuel? If there was 45 mins reserve on the Saab and still 30mins left even after the Tour de Deutschland then, IMHO, the safety net has done its job.
Look at it this way: if the 45min fuel reserve hadn't been there, this whole event might have ended less happily. As it stands, Swiss just has a Saab with knackered wheels.
At what point does reserve fuel stop being reserve fuel? If there was 45 mins reserve on the Saab and still 30mins left even after the Tour de Deutschland then, IMHO, the safety net has done its job.
Look at it this way: if the 45min fuel reserve hadn't been there, this whole event might have ended less happily. As it stands, Swiss just has a Saab with knackered wheels.
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Typical Fuel senario :
Taxi : standard x kgs
Trip : from a to b
CF : 5 % of trip (compensate stronger head wind e.g.)
Alternate (from b to c sid+star)
Final Reserve : 30 min holding
Extra : decided by crew to have as extra fuel. (eg. 600 kgs)
First part is the minimum required !
Extra = Extra
Taxi : standard x kgs
Trip : from a to b
CF : 5 % of trip (compensate stronger head wind e.g.)
Alternate (from b to c sid+star)
Final Reserve : 30 min holding
Extra : decided by crew to have as extra fuel. (eg. 600 kgs)
First part is the minimum required !
Extra = Extra
At what point does reserve fuel stop being reserve fuel? If there was 45 mins reserve on the Saab and still 30mins left even after the Tour de Deutschland then, IMHO, the safety net has done its job
So IMHO they did nothing special - just followed regulations. I'd say that the PR folks outdid themselves on this one...
--alex
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So IMHO they did nothing special - just followed regulations. I'd say that the PR folks outdid themselves on this one...
No again not correct; these 45 minutes are extra on the minimum required. (In the min. required there is 30 min. holding included)
Capito ?
No again not correct; these 45 minutes are extra on the minimum required. (In the min. required there is 30 min. holding included)
Capito ?
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+TS
Where do you see the 30 minutes holding fuel in the minimum required fuel?
The Final Reserve equals to 30 minutes flight time at holding speed at 1500 ft above aerodrom elevation in standard conditions at the estimated landing mass.
(OM A SWISS)
BUT this FINAL RESERVE has to stay on board is not for burning. That means you can not plan to burn it, but you have to calculate to have it on board after landing! So you still are able to do a go-around and still have some fuel left!!
Where do you see the 30 minutes holding fuel in the minimum required fuel?
The Final Reserve equals to 30 minutes flight time at holding speed at 1500 ft above aerodrom elevation in standard conditions at the estimated landing mass.
(OM A SWISS)
BUT this FINAL RESERVE has to stay on board is not for burning. That means you can not plan to burn it, but you have to calculate to have it on board after landing! So you still are able to do a go-around and still have some fuel left!!
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legal fuel
Not really correct.
You fly from a to b.
b is closed due to weather.
Now you are going from b to c, your alternate.
Unfortunately the runway of c is closed due to a weird party.
You spend 30min in the holding 1500ft above the aerodrome until the police has chased away the weird people from the runway.
Now you land on the runway and all your engines die on the runway due to fuel exhaustion and so you need a tow.
This means, you were flying on minimum required fuel -
- totally legal!
You fly from a to b.
b is closed due to weather.
Now you are going from b to c, your alternate.
Unfortunately the runway of c is closed due to a weird party.
You spend 30min in the holding 1500ft above the aerodrome until the police has chased away the weird people from the runway.
Now you land on the runway and all your engines die on the runway due to fuel exhaustion and so you need a tow.
This means, you were flying on minimum required fuel -
- totally legal!
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Hello Midnight Blue
Here the exact wording from the SWISS OM A:
Commitment to Proceed
Situation may arise, where the applocationj of the rules is no longer possible or may lead to increased operational risks with no gain in safety. In this case, the commander has to make the choice whether to divert to the ALT or to continue to (or hold over) the DEST.
He must take into account:
- The remaining fuel;
- The weather at the intended landing aerodrom (actual, trend, seasonal aspects);
- The traffic situation (peak hours, familiarity with the aerodrom/apprtoach proceedures, single/multiple runway layout, etc.)
so as to land with not less than FINAL RESERVE FUEL!!
Here the exact wording from the SWISS OM A:
Commitment to Proceed
Situation may arise, where the applocationj of the rules is no longer possible or may lead to increased operational risks with no gain in safety. In this case, the commander has to make the choice whether to divert to the ALT or to continue to (or hold over) the DEST.
He must take into account:
- The remaining fuel;
- The weather at the intended landing aerodrom (actual, trend, seasonal aspects);
- The traffic situation (peak hours, familiarity with the aerodrom/apprtoach proceedures, single/multiple runway layout, etc.)
so as to land with not less than FINAL RESERVE FUEL!!
Thanks for your inut, 773829.
So to put this matter to a rest: according to those data, was there any "extra" fuel in the bird, i.e. anything more than what would have been dictated by the airline operation standards ?
--alex
So to put this matter to a rest: according to those data, was there any "extra" fuel in the bird, i.e. anything more than what would have been dictated by the airline operation standards ?
--alex
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Ok, I got the wording from EWG FOM 8.1.7.1.1 e) - the definition of final reserve fuel:
"Final reserve fuel must be the fuel to hold for 30min (45min, if planning without destination alternate) at holding speed at 1500 ft above aerodrome elevation in ISA, calculated with the estimated landing weight on arrival at the alternate or the destination, when no alternate is required."
So why take final reserve fuel anyway, if you are not allowed to use it?
We (EWG) are not allowed to land at destination with less the diversion fuel (alternate fuel + final reserve).
So if you need to go to your alternate due to the circumstances, of course it is legal to use you alternate fuel, and if you need to hold at the alternate, of course it is legal to start using your final reserve and land with less.
What are you doing at SWISS, when you get to your alternate with not more than final reserve fuel and need to hold there for 10min?
Eject?
Or hold 10min and turn yourself in to jail for breaking aviation rules after landing?
I think, it might be a misunderstanding, as you read it from your manual.
To avoid all this scenario, I take extrafuel, whenever it deems necessary to me (TS,FG,wind,traffic...)
Grüezi to Switzerland!
I like ZRH very much, have been there yesterday, and I wish the very best for SWISS!!
Midnight Blue
"Final reserve fuel must be the fuel to hold for 30min (45min, if planning without destination alternate) at holding speed at 1500 ft above aerodrome elevation in ISA, calculated with the estimated landing weight on arrival at the alternate or the destination, when no alternate is required."
So why take final reserve fuel anyway, if you are not allowed to use it?
We (EWG) are not allowed to land at destination with less the diversion fuel (alternate fuel + final reserve).
So if you need to go to your alternate due to the circumstances, of course it is legal to use you alternate fuel, and if you need to hold at the alternate, of course it is legal to start using your final reserve and land with less.
What are you doing at SWISS, when you get to your alternate with not more than final reserve fuel and need to hold there for 10min?
Eject?
Or hold 10min and turn yourself in to jail for breaking aviation rules after landing?
I think, it might be a misunderstanding, as you read it from your manual.
To avoid all this scenario, I take extrafuel, whenever it deems necessary to me (TS,FG,wind,traffic...)
Grüezi to Switzerland!
I like ZRH very much, have been there yesterday, and I wish the very best for SWISS!!
Midnight Blue
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@ atakacs:
I think it was stated, that the crew took 45min extrafuel with them, and after landing they had 480kg left in the tanks, which is around 28min flighttime. I am relating to previous posts.
I think it was stated, that the crew took 45min extrafuel with them, and after landing they had 480kg left in the tanks, which is around 28min flighttime. I am relating to previous posts.
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If you come close to final reserve fuel you have to declare an emergency, so you get priority for landing and do not have to hold for 10 minutes!
Thats why you should plan to land with not less than final reserve fuel.
Thats why you should plan to land with not less than final reserve fuel.
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Interestingly, at our last ground refresher, we were told that on a flight to BSL, admitedly in fine weather, we do not have to plan an alternate. Look at the chart, crossing runways, and ILS on 16 and only circling approaches to two of the other runways. It's not surprising the poor guy was a bit confused. Granted the weather was bad but we're encouraged to go fast, carry min fuel and commit to an airfield like BSL.
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Hobbit WADR
Not planning for an alternate, is like having a pilot with a death wish. For something's sake, you permanently plan for an alternate even while riding a bike or driving a car, let alone going to a 3rd dimension.
I'll add that to my list of questions asked before deciding to fly with anybody.
And just for my understanding, which is kind of cloudy after your comments, wasn't BSL the point of departure in all of this rather than the destination (which was HAMBURG if my memory still serves).
Hope the above doesn't sound too aggressive - it is IMHO however necessary that it be said.
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What goes up comes down - the opposite is not always true unfortunately
I'll add that to my list of questions asked before deciding to fly with anybody.
And just for my understanding, which is kind of cloudy after your comments, wasn't BSL the point of departure in all of this rather than the destination (which was HAMBURG if my memory still serves).
Hope the above doesn't sound too aggressive - it is IMHO however necessary that it be said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
What goes up comes down - the opposite is not always true unfortunately
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Plan without dest. alternate!
Hello Hobbit
I would rather belive in a book, than what somebody tell at a GSR.
If you have the SWISS OM "A" you can read under Chapter 8.1 / page 28 para. 63.2 what you need, that one can plan without dest. alternat.
But still. I never would leave with this required fuel (legal amount), even if everything looks perfect!
I would rather belive in a book, than what somebody tell at a GSR.
If you have the SWISS OM "A" you can read under Chapter 8.1 / page 28 para. 63.2 what you need, that one can plan without dest. alternat.
But still. I never would leave with this required fuel (legal amount), even if everything looks perfect!
