"Swiss" makes emergency landing in Germany
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Sad to watch this "debat fratricide" ( sorry do not know how to translate this in English but the Swiss will know what it means ) in this forum.
Stop throwing stones at each other. The LX Saab2000 Capt that made this emergency landing in bad wx, with apparently no doc/chart did a very good decision and probably saved lives for not attempting something bolder at his intended destination or at his normal alt fields.
The real culprit of this mess for me is more the idiot that decided to put a sand wall in the middle of the runway, rather than LX management.
An by the way, overruning runways is not the exclusivity of LX . SR also had his a few years back in Athens. A bloody concrete wall at the end of the runway if my memory is correct. But there also the Greeks sent the crew in Jail, not the local guy that decided to put a wall in there.( to protect passing cars from beeing hit by overruning aircraft [true]..
But that was a long time ago. I wonder how the BFU will react ..
I have made many rides in SR and LX cockpits , as well as on many, many others airlines, and believe me, give me a Swiss crew anyday.
Learn from all this mess and improve. Help Swiss(air) getting back to their feet and be once again the airline that it was sounds a good option to me. I do not like to shoot at ambulances.
Stop throwing stones at each other. The LX Saab2000 Capt that made this emergency landing in bad wx, with apparently no doc/chart did a very good decision and probably saved lives for not attempting something bolder at his intended destination or at his normal alt fields.
The real culprit of this mess for me is more the idiot that decided to put a sand wall in the middle of the runway, rather than LX management.
An by the way, overruning runways is not the exclusivity of LX . SR also had his a few years back in Athens. A bloody concrete wall at the end of the runway if my memory is correct. But there also the Greeks sent the crew in Jail, not the local guy that decided to put a wall in there.( to protect passing cars from beeing hit by overruning aircraft [true]..
But that was a long time ago. I wonder how the BFU will react ..
I have made many rides in SR and LX cockpits , as well as on many, many others airlines, and believe me, give me a Swiss crew anyday.
Learn from all this mess and improve. Help Swiss(air) getting back to their feet and be once again the airline that it was sounds a good option to me. I do not like to shoot at ambulances.
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"The LX Saab2000 Capt that made this emergency landing in bad wx, with apparently no doc/chart did a very good decision and probably saved lives for not attempting something bolder at his intended destination or at his normal alt fields. "
Is he really as good as you wright ATC Watcher? How did the Saab came into this situation? Wy found all other aircrafts a safer solution with the current weather situation in north Germany?
I think it is a lot too early to make such statements....
Is he really as good as you wright ATC Watcher? How did the Saab came into this situation? Wy found all other aircrafts a safer solution with the current weather situation in north Germany?
I think it is a lot too early to make such statements....
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it is easy for us to comment now he should have done this and could have done that. as i understand the guy did everything as sop and information available at planing stage. it would be unfair to jump into critical conclusions.
having said that i would think following plays some role:
- usually company policy, tri,tc and TRE tend to be bit critical of
pilots who tend to uplift higher fuel.
- as webboy pointed out, a smart dispatcher elects favourable
alternates by taking into consideration for wx,notam,ect.
it is too easy a job just following sop, a little commonsence and
extra effort of dispatcher makes colleages life in the air much
better.
- let us not be too critical of our colleagues, let the investigator
do the job. noone is perfect,we alyas learn from mistakes.
- German TV reported the weather man in Germany were caught
by surprise that forcast was so far off. In the us or in tropics this
kind of weather is quite common but not in North Europe.
- When thing go wrong it will go wrong. murphy.
cheers.
having said that i would think following plays some role:
- usually company policy, tri,tc and TRE tend to be bit critical of
pilots who tend to uplift higher fuel.
- as webboy pointed out, a smart dispatcher elects favourable
alternates by taking into consideration for wx,notam,ect.
it is too easy a job just following sop, a little commonsence and
extra effort of dispatcher makes colleages life in the air much
better.
- let us not be too critical of our colleagues, let the investigator
do the job. noone is perfect,we alyas learn from mistakes.
- German TV reported the weather man in Germany were caught
by surprise that forcast was so far off. In the us or in tropics this
kind of weather is quite common but not in North Europe.
- When thing go wrong it will go wrong. murphy.
cheers.
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773829, good point. Let's wait .
Middlepath, I can also agree with you. I have met Murphy many times in my carreer. He is still out there ...waiting...
But expecting a sand wall in the middle of a runway needs some extraordinary imagination don't you think ?
Middlepath, I can also agree with you. I have met Murphy many times in my carreer. He is still out there ...waiting...
But expecting a sand wall in the middle of a runway needs some extraordinary imagination don't you think ?
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The sand wall is as interesting as the problem that maybe even ATC didn't know about it. Otherwise the pilot might have been warned. The Saab 2000 doesn't seem to be sooo hot that you can't put it down in 4900ft with max-effort braking & reverse (any Saab 2000 driver to comment on this?)
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Certainly do not have an insight into the "problems" of Crossair, but seems to me that the Saab 2000 Captain did the best he could under the circumstances. ATC pointed him toward the airfield, he approached in the direction he thought best (with the information available), landed in twilight on an unlighted runway, and would have been quite OK if the airfield authorities had NOT selected to put an obstruction on the runway, instead of (hello, what a novel idea) marking the runway properly in the first place.
This was certainly better than facing fuel exhaustion and trying to land on a road.
Give the guy(s) a break! They did their best, everyone walked away, so whats the problem?
This was certainly better than facing fuel exhaustion and trying to land on a road.
Give the guy(s) a break! They did their best, everyone walked away, so whats the problem?
Last edited by 411A; 15th Jul 2002 at 02:12.
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unusable part of runway
Alpine Flyer, the Saab Pilot had no 4900 ft for landing because he tried the 08. As the whole runway was not lighted, and is was short before becoming dark, he aimed for the 2950 ft unusable westerly part of the runway.
This part was in fact marked as unusable, but the markings were hardly visible. The old threshold, tdz and centerline markings were much better to see. Additionally the controller, who recommended to go to this airfield, had no local knowledge, so he could not inform the unlucky Saab driver about the silly obstacle.
If I were "Swiss", I would sue the Werneuchen Airport-Manager for putting up this senseless obstacle on an active and usable runway.
This part was in fact marked as unusable, but the markings were hardly visible. The old threshold, tdz and centerline markings were much better to see. Additionally the controller, who recommended to go to this airfield, had no local knowledge, so he could not inform the unlucky Saab driver about the silly obstacle.
If I were "Swiss", I would sue the Werneuchen Airport-Manager for putting up this senseless obstacle on an active and usable runway.
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I am new on this site and as usual a chat starts with some interesting questions but quickly deviates to a stupid word-war, from my point of view, pilot should visit more frequently psy's to talk about their ego
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Whilst I make some allowance for some of the debaters where English is not their first language I would like to point out to those who are not experienced in actual turboprop flying to beware of their comments. We all know how 'knowledgeable' you can become if you read all the books and even if you spend a lifetime in the jump seat. When it comes to the actual operation, people without the necessary experience only serve to antagonise those of us who have done this and still do this every day of our lives when they try to enter the debate with their 'knowledgeable' experience and theories, especially when they are critical of the pilots.
I would like to ask that the 'armchair experts', the ones without actual experience of this type of operation to stop winding the rest of us up with their hindsight and changing this thread into a debate about how good Crossair pilots may or may not be. As has been pointed out, the waether forecasters sometimes get it very wrong. Ask anyone about hurricanes in the south of England a few years ago.
When the a/c has a fuel emergency, for whatever reason, and the weather is much worse than forecast, then you have to get it down as soon as possible and preferably at an airport with a long enough runway. It appears that in this case the pilot was caught unawares as was the controller that this runway had a earth mound across it. At the end of the day no one was hurt and the investigation will no doubt reveal the actual chain of events that led to the accident. As is always the case it will not be one single item but a chain. All I ask is that the 'armchair experts', the ones with no actual experience of airline ops, to pipe down and stop trying to persuade the rest of us that just because you are on an ATPL course and have a few hundred hours in a Piper that you can tell the rest of us how it should have been.
I would like to ask that the 'armchair experts', the ones without actual experience of this type of operation to stop winding the rest of us up with their hindsight and changing this thread into a debate about how good Crossair pilots may or may not be. As has been pointed out, the waether forecasters sometimes get it very wrong. Ask anyone about hurricanes in the south of England a few years ago.
When the a/c has a fuel emergency, for whatever reason, and the weather is much worse than forecast, then you have to get it down as soon as possible and preferably at an airport with a long enough runway. It appears that in this case the pilot was caught unawares as was the controller that this runway had a earth mound across it. At the end of the day no one was hurt and the investigation will no doubt reveal the actual chain of events that led to the accident. As is always the case it will not be one single item but a chain. All I ask is that the 'armchair experts', the ones with no actual experience of airline ops, to pipe down and stop trying to persuade the rest of us that just because you are on an ATPL course and have a few hundred hours in a Piper that you can tell the rest of us how it should have been.
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Didn't mean to attack anyone.
Read Cpt PPRuNe's posting again, please:
It's just to easy to do those silly prejudgements comfortably on the ground after an incident happend without having been in the cockpit.
Let's wait for the BFU report, o.k.!
Read Cpt PPRuNe's posting again, please:
I would like to ask that the 'armchair experts', the ones without actual experience of this type of operation to stop winding the rest of us up with their hindsight....
Let's wait for the BFU report, o.k.!
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No, it's not because it has been withheld by the swiss government authorities in order to protect the taxpayer's money the government had invested in the new "swiss" airline...
But this time, the accident investigation is going to be conducted by the german authorities, which gives me hope that the outcome will be less banana-republic-style...
But this time, the accident investigation is going to be conducted by the german authorities, which gives me hope that the outcome will be less banana-republic-style...
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Beyond Hysteria
Am I the only one who looks to accidents and incidents as a learning opportunity? I've been flying professionally for 22 years on every continent except Antarctica. If I've learned one thing above all else, it is that we as professional aviators have something to learn from EVERY incident and accident, no matter where or how is occurs.
I believe professional pilots are a global collective, and if one of our number makes a mistake, or is confronted with a difficult set of circumstances, then the entire collective is in a position to benefit from the investigation into accidents, so that similar problems are more appropriately handled in the future.
Churlish mud-slinging is not only wide of the mark, but grist for the journalist's mill. Personally, I am relieved that no-one was injured, or worse. As for the current growing pains of the new airline in Switzerland, might I suggest redirecting this dreadful wave of negative energy into an investment for a safer future within the context of international flight safety. Working together is the only way forward.
I believe professional pilots are a global collective, and if one of our number makes a mistake, or is confronted with a difficult set of circumstances, then the entire collective is in a position to benefit from the investigation into accidents, so that similar problems are more appropriately handled in the future.
Churlish mud-slinging is not only wide of the mark, but grist for the journalist's mill. Personally, I am relieved that no-one was injured, or worse. As for the current growing pains of the new airline in Switzerland, might I suggest redirecting this dreadful wave of negative energy into an investment for a safer future within the context of international flight safety. Working together is the only way forward.
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Does anyone have concrete information about how much fuel was left on board the aircraft after it stopped on the runway?
Also, regarding the proper marking of the runway with crosses, I don't think any pilot would have gone "Oh my, this runway has crosses on it, better go around and find another airport." Crosses on the runway don't even hint at the fact that there's a huge pile of earth on the runway.
Crosses on the runway or not, as long as it seems like a long slab of concrete which you can land on, I'd land, if I was running on fumes.
Still, when you're ultimately pushed in a situation where your final alternate is closing and you don't have much fuel, there's just two options:
1. Land at the closing airport anyway
2. Try to find somewhere else close to land without knowing IF there's anything else to land on.
In order to arrive at option 2 with your decision (as a crew of course), the weather at the closing airport has to be so incredibly bad that it's physically unwarranted to land the aircraft there.
At least, that's my opinion.
Also, regarding the proper marking of the runway with crosses, I don't think any pilot would have gone "Oh my, this runway has crosses on it, better go around and find another airport." Crosses on the runway don't even hint at the fact that there's a huge pile of earth on the runway.
Crosses on the runway or not, as long as it seems like a long slab of concrete which you can land on, I'd land, if I was running on fumes.
Still, when you're ultimately pushed in a situation where your final alternate is closing and you don't have much fuel, there's just two options:
1. Land at the closing airport anyway
2. Try to find somewhere else close to land without knowing IF there's anything else to land on.
In order to arrive at option 2 with your decision (as a crew of course), the weather at the closing airport has to be so incredibly bad that it's physically unwarranted to land the aircraft there.
At least, that's my opinion.
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Regarding the runway markings: I don't really think that better markings would have made a significant difference. The visual approach was made in poor lighting and with no available runway lights. Maybe better markings would have given the flight crew two or three more seconds advance notice that the runway is closed and potentially unsafe.
I do not understand why a man-made obstruction was built on the runway. Is it the typical "we don't want big airplanes here" anti general-aviation attitude?
Whatever the exact reason(s) for the low-fuel status are, I think that the pilots did very good in landing the plane. And this is why we get paid for, to provide the best service in safety in any given situation.
Enough said!
7 7 7 7
I do not understand why a man-made obstruction was built on the runway. Is it the typical "we don't want big airplanes here" anti general-aviation attitude?
Whatever the exact reason(s) for the low-fuel status are, I think that the pilots did very good in landing the plane. And this is why we get paid for, to provide the best service in safety in any given situation.
Enough said!
7 7 7 7
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It occured to me that not too long ago, a Saab 340 flying for a Mexican regional airline (probably Aeromexico) made an emergency landing in a dirt-strip runway. Apparently they were low on fuel. I wonder if there might be any connections in regards to systems etc. Never flown a 340 or 2000, so I cannot tell. It might just be an unlucky "coincidence"...