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USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

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USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

Old 10th Apr 2017, 21:48
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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According to Fox News, Chicago Airport Police have announced that the officer who dragged the pax has been suspended for not following their procedures. Do ya think?
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 21:49
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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UA have acted disgraceful in this incident.

The passenger had paid for his seat for this flight. That OPS had to accommodate DH crew, was not the fault of the passengers.

Ultimately it is the Captain who is responsible to call the Airport Police to the aircraft. The Captain is the one responsible for all actions taken on his aircraft.

And I would expect the Captain to at least be called in for tea and biscuits.

Anybody who can condone the behaviour of the police, and how and more importantly why he was removed, need their heads examined. You clearly do not live and operate in a customer orientated world, or you clearly don't care about how your customers are treated.

The lawyers will have a field day with UA, and they will unfortunately probably reach a settlement outside court.

The passenger has paid for the seat for this specific flight, imagine you have a hotel room for one night, you have paid for this room for this specific night. So you have gone into the hotel room and gone to sleep in the bed, than shortly after the police enters your room and removes you for no other reason than to accommodate a staff they have working there.
This would not be right, neither legally or morally.

You have paid the money for the seat, and as long as you have not breached any of your terms and conditions, you have the right to quiet enjoyment of what you have paid for.

Any Captain taking this decision, should in my opinion be seriously reprimanded for allowing this situation to happen, including OPS management who allowed this to happen.

You have damaged the reputation of your employer, will cost them millions in compensation and bad PR. These are one of those Non-Tech situations, that you do not get trained for in the Sim, where you need to show why you deserve to earn a 6 figure salary.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 21:55
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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The terms for breaking a contract need to be equitable

When you purchase a ticket, you're entering into a contract with the airline for SAFE carriage from point A to point B. Clearly the compensation package for breaking that contract at the convenience of the carrier needs to be increased. An $800 travel voucher would hardly compensate a physician for a day of lost revenue and angry patients. Likewise, blowing the schedule of a surgeon would not only hose him, but an entire OR schedule. The compensation doesn't have to be punitive, but it should be equitable, and it should be in cash, not in a voucher that might decrease in value as fares fluctuate. While I would probably have taken the $800 and crappy OHR hotel, this gentleman clearly had someplace to be. There had to be a better option than beating the hell out of him. If I were AA, my next ad campaign would feature the following: "At American, if we overbook we'll fatten your wallet, NOT your lip."
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:00
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Ultimately it is the Captain who is responsible to call the Airport Police to the aircraft. The Captain is the one responsible for all actions taken on his aircraft....And I would expect the Captain to at least be called in for tea and biscuits..
Ummm.... Sorry but whilst some like to think so it is not that simple. In the air, yes, but on the ground, with the doors open, with law enforcement on the scene of an incident it is nowhere near as clear cut.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:02
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bealzebub View Post
Because common sense would tell you that there would be a limit to such offers and reaching that limit doesn't necessarily corelate to achieving the required result.
The "required result" is to operate airline that makes a profit and generates value for its shareholders. I'm not a PR expert, but I suspect the cost of this particular fracas, in terms of reputational damage, is in the millions or tens of millions. Offering $2,000 would have got people off the plane. Do the math.

It strikes me that the commonsense limit would be, at the point that making the offer for volunteers costs more than involuntarily bumping a passenger would cost.

And even if you don't wind up with an altercation, involuntarily bumping a passenger has to be at least $5,000 in reputational damage; unless your computer algorithm succceds in finding the passenger who's unlikely ever to fly your airline again, anyhow.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:07
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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United will suffer in so many ways from this. Including, I'm sure, at the hands of the late night comedy shows in the USA tonight. Perhaps they'll inherit Air Canada's slogan from a few years back: "We're not happy 'til you're not happy!"
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:11
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps what is needed is a rule change much further back in the process. The poor fellow who was bumped and bruised had paid for, and was allocated a seat. Short of his being in violation of a cabin safety regulation, he was entitled to ride in the seat for which he had paid. The airline has no right to presume that they can repurpose that seat, or otherwise overbook the flight.

If a passenger, who has paid for a seat fails to board, the seat should fly empty, and the non flier charged full price for it. The airline has no right to overbook on the chance that they might sell some seats twice! Overbooking should be outlawed. If, in the moments before gate close, the paying passenger has not shown up, them perhaps the airline can double dip, and sell to the seat to standby passenger, who had not confirmed seat anyway.

I agree, an $800 travel voucher would not get my attention at all, my day is worth much more to me than that. And that travel voucher.... puts you into a low cost seat next time, from which you can be bumped!

My money is good, the seat it bought should be too!

If I were AA, my next ad campaign would feature the following: "At American, if we overbook we'll fatten your wallet, NOT your lip."
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:14
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by czarnajama View Post
otherwise uncontrolled auctions for over-booking compensation will occur
Is that MBA-speak for "the free market will operate, and the airline will be forced to pay market rate to buy out passengers being denied boarding?"

Heaven forfend!
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:21
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials View Post
Is that MBA-speak for "the free market will operate, and the airline will be forced to pay market rate to buy out passengers being denied boarding?"

Heaven forfend!
Apparently one can virtually make a living out of playing this game (judiciously).
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:22
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials View Post
Is that MBA-speak for "the free market will operate, and the airline will be forced to pay market rate to buy out passengers being denied boarding?"

Heaven forfend!
I know right? It also has the added benefit that the airline might properly understand the costs of their operational mistakes as opposed to it being $800.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:23
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HEMS driver View Post
According to Fox News, Chicago Airport Police have announced that the officer who dragged the pax has been suspended for not following their procedures. Do ya think?
From CBS news...

Chicago Aviation Officer Placed On Leave After Dragging Man Off Plane CBS Chicago
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:26
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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The incident has just made the 10 pm BBC News, complete with a clip from United's "Fly the Friendly Skies" commercial.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:31
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Another disturbing video clip has emerged with the bloodied man chanting 'just kill me' :

https://twitter.com/kaylyn_davis/sta...485760/video/1

And a few more seconds of the 'I have to go home' repetitions:

https://twitter.com/kaylyn_davis/sta...71574385307648

Last edited by Airbubba; 10th Apr 2017 at 23:01.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:34
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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The ironic thing is that my guess is if they'd upped the offer to $2K they would have got the 4 volunteers, and everyone is happy. United has to pay an extra $5k, but it's a pittance to what this has cost them.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:36
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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"wiggy"

Regarding Captains responsibility. In this case it was not about an unruly passenger. Captain would have had to give the go ahead to the dispatcher to call the police. A very poor decision indeed, and misuse of brute force.

The passenger could only have been given the order to remove the passenger by the Captain, Cabin Crew would have had to identify the passenger to the police, as the passenger was again as mentioned not an unruly passenger.

Of course OPS might have contacted the police, but in the end whatever happens inside the aircraft, either doors open or close, is the Captains responsibility.

The passenger did not sit in the wrong seat, not boarded by mistake, was not making any nuisance or being a threat that would identify him, unless the Cabin Crew Manager had identified him, and as far as I know, the Captain still outranks the Cabin Crew Manager.

If there are drunk passengers during boarding, the normal procedure in most companies I know of, is that the Captain is informed, and he ultimately takes the decision if the passenger should be removed and if the police is required.
I know of NO airline who does it differently, either in the USA or rest of the world.
This is the reason the Captain is payed a 6 figure amount, because he is the Top Manager on the aircraft.

This comment from another forum sums it up nicely:

"There's NOT a rule for removing paying passengers who have boarded the aircraft and are seated in their reserved, assigned seats and replacing them with airline employees.

Without comment on whether compensation for denied boarding is flawed or not, denied boarding is not the issue. The passenger was permitted to board, and was subsequently removed. While the airline may have been well within its rights to deny him boarding (we don't know if he met the criteria according to their boarding priority list, but let's assume he did), they allowed him to board. According to the Contract of Carriage Document, he should not have been removed involuntarily."

Last edited by truckflyer; 10th Apr 2017 at 22:48.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:48
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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So its an accepted practice to overbook. That is sell a product you have no intention of supplying.

Oh its OK because its in the very small print.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:49
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Personally, I feel sorry about the downfall of our industry. I hope this guy can sue them to hell.

This is not where we stand for in aviation and even after 30 years in industries I never expected.

Disgusting, shame on you UA
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:49
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by truckflyer View Post
"wiggy"

Regarding Captains responsibility. In this case it was not about an unruly passenger. Captain would have had to give the go ahead to the dispatcher to call the police. A very poor decision indeed, and misuse of brute force.
The captain would give the go ahead to the dispatcher to call the police?

I'm not rightly sure that's how it works on a Republic RJ at the gate at ORD.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:50
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Grizzled

You're 100% wrong. Airlines can remove pax from planes for doing absolutely nothing wrong, when the only reason is the seat is needed. Prove me wrong with chapter and verse then I'll show where you're wrong.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 22:57
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Why don't you just show the OP where they are wrong, anyway ?

United's Conditions of Carriage are freely available on the Net. To save space, perhaps you could just quote the part that applies in this instance ?
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