SQ-368 (engine & wing on fire) final report out
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Luck was on their side this time but still very reckless decision not to evacuate.
Everyone defending the decision to keep pax on board a BURNING aircraft is mad. It is clear that this was a total cock up from beginning to end.
I don't care if the Fire services were so close. EVACUATE! Your aircraft is on fire and there are available emergency exits. use them! its a no brainer.
Everyone defending the decision to keep pax on board a BURNING aircraft is mad. It is clear that this was a total cock up from beginning to end.
I don't care if the Fire services were so close. EVACUATE! Your aircraft is on fire and there are available emergency exits. use them! its a no brainer.
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Luck was on their side this time but still very reckless decision not to evacuate.
Everyone defending the decision to keep pax on board a BURNING aircraft is mad. It is clear that this was a total cock up from beginning to end.
I don't care if the Fire services were so close. EVACUATE! Your aircraft is on fire and there are available emergency exits. use them! its a no brainer.
Everyone defending the decision to keep pax on board a BURNING aircraft is mad. It is clear that this was a total cock up from beginning to end.
I don't care if the Fire services were so close. EVACUATE! Your aircraft is on fire and there are available emergency exits. use them! its a no brainer.
Oh so now some of you will be thinking no not quite there may be exceptions. I would suggest that all those saying always evacuate; never think; no brains required; should really never be captain. There are times when it may be a simple decision; but it should always be a decision not an unthinking reaction - or for that matter unthinking lack of action.
The Air China, and British Air Tours at Manchester are repeatedly cited but these were different cases. No emergency is ever a cookie cutter version of a previous one. Unfortunately, no information is available -yet- on why this captain decided in this particular case that waiting and using 'fire stairs' was a better option. The automatons on this board should perhaps wait until the facts are known: they may realize that being an automaton is not always the best option. A real learning opportunity.
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It is kind of funny when folks say "Situation was bought under control so passengers can use ES and no need for slide evac".
Imagine a scenario where everyone lined up with their cabin baggage to use ES and fire restarts.
There is no evidence the leak and ignition sources were identified and fixed.
Fire tenders have no more fire retardants left in their tanks.
Door (or doors) are probably disarmed.
It would have been a major disaster if fire restarts.
Bottom line, don't play with fire (first/third/old/new worlds doesn't matter). Evac pax even with one slide and move pax as far way from the fire, doesn't matter what fire crew is doing.
BA@LAS or DY@FLL, saving pax is priority not metal.
Imagine a scenario where everyone lined up with their cabin baggage to use ES and fire restarts.
There is no evidence the leak and ignition sources were identified and fixed.
Fire tenders have no more fire retardants left in their tanks.
Door (or doors) are probably disarmed.
It would have been a major disaster if fire restarts.
Bottom line, don't play with fire (first/third/old/new worlds doesn't matter). Evac pax even with one slide and move pax as far way from the fire, doesn't matter what fire crew is doing.
BA@LAS or DY@FLL, saving pax is priority not metal.
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Pilots are not perfect
And the sooner you recognise that, the safer and better pilot you will be.
I think every pilot would agree that TOGA thrust and 12 seconds nose down trim on a 737NG GA not far from the ground is pretty much curtains....
Yes, let's put our head in the sand and wait for the full report.
Or we can say pilots are human too and they can make errors.
The flydubai crash is another issue, but in this case there is already enough evidence to call pilot error. There can be no mitigating factors we don't know about that could persuade otherwise. Luckily on this occasion there were no injuries.
"Maybe we don't know the facts. Let's wait". >> Bad pilots in my book.
"Engine and wing on fire, they should have evac'd". I want these guys up front. Or me.
I think every pilot would agree that TOGA thrust and 12 seconds nose down trim on a 737NG GA not far from the ground is pretty much curtains....
Yes, let's put our head in the sand and wait for the full report.
Or we can say pilots are human too and they can make errors.
The flydubai crash is another issue, but in this case there is already enough evidence to call pilot error. There can be no mitigating factors we don't know about that could persuade otherwise. Luckily on this occasion there were no injuries.
"Maybe we don't know the facts. Let's wait". >> Bad pilots in my book.
"Engine and wing on fire, they should have evac'd". I want these guys up front. Or me.
The older I get the more I try my best to be open to alternative points of view that are contrary to my “conventional wisdom”.
I am trying to be open minded with the line of thinking that it may in certain situations be safer to remain inside a burning aircraft.
The video below shows a truck spraying a continuous stream of foam into the fire for over a minute without any noticeable decrease in the size of the fire.
Obviously the fire crews were victorious as there is ample video showing foam dripping from the windows and the fire clearly out, but only with 20/20 hindsight.
However, having completed the evac checklist and pausing with a finger on the PA ready to say those magic words, it would take nurries of steel to sit and watch that fire for over a minute patiently waiting for the fire to be bought under control.
What exactly could the fire crews say to you over the radio that would convince you that the best course of action would be to NOT evacuate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZyrEvxiccQ
Ian W,
You really have taken the argument to the extreme. No one is suggesting that the decision is to be conducted without thinking.
But this was a significant fire that was not easy to knock down.
I am trying to be open minded with the line of thinking that it may in certain situations be safer to remain inside a burning aircraft.
The video below shows a truck spraying a continuous stream of foam into the fire for over a minute without any noticeable decrease in the size of the fire.
Obviously the fire crews were victorious as there is ample video showing foam dripping from the windows and the fire clearly out, but only with 20/20 hindsight.
However, having completed the evac checklist and pausing with a finger on the PA ready to say those magic words, it would take nurries of steel to sit and watch that fire for over a minute patiently waiting for the fire to be bought under control.
What exactly could the fire crews say to you over the radio that would convince you that the best course of action would be to NOT evacuate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZyrEvxiccQ
Ian W,
You really have taken the argument to the extreme. No one is suggesting that the decision is to be conducted without thinking.
But this was a significant fire that was not easy to knock down.
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Many a true word - a 'no brainer' - in other words do not use your brain. So what are the flight crew for? This could be automated - the aircraft automatics identify fire on the ground, turn the aircraft so fire is downwind of fuselage, stop the aircraft immediately and doors and slides on the upwind side away from any fire are automatically deploy. Simple.
Oh so now some of you will be thinking no not quite there may be exceptions. I would suggest that all those saying always evacuate; never think; no brains required; should really never be captain. There are times when it may be a simple decision; but it should always be a decision not an unthinking reaction - or for that matter unthinking lack of action.
The Air China, and British Air Tours at Manchester are repeatedly cited but these were different cases. No emergency is ever a cookie cutter version of a previous one. Unfortunately, no information is available -yet- on why this captain decided in this particular case that waiting and using 'fire stairs' was a better option. The automatons on this board should perhaps wait until the facts are known: they may realize that being an automaton is not always the best option. A real learning opportunity.
Oh so now some of you will be thinking no not quite there may be exceptions. I would suggest that all those saying always evacuate; never think; no brains required; should really never be captain. There are times when it may be a simple decision; but it should always be a decision not an unthinking reaction - or for that matter unthinking lack of action.
The Air China, and British Air Tours at Manchester are repeatedly cited but these were different cases. No emergency is ever a cookie cutter version of a previous one. Unfortunately, no information is available -yet- on why this captain decided in this particular case that waiting and using 'fire stairs' was a better option. The automatons on this board should perhaps wait until the facts are known: they may realize that being an automaton is not always the best option. A real learning opportunity.
I posted something similar, but it "disappeared" for some reason.
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It's nice to see some people agree with my sentiments, if not put them across in a more reasoned fashion!
Julio, I will tell you the type of pilot I would like on my flight.....I would like a pilot that uses all of his available resources to ensure a safe outcome. That includes communication, communication with the tower, RFF, cabin crew and anyone else that can offer valuable information. Once this pilot has collected all the available info to hand (camera, EICAS messages etc) they will possibly use DODAR or some other decision making tool to come up with their decision, which will, by virtue of the R, be reviewed so there should be an assessment of the initial decision.
Once again I reiterate......until we are in possession of all the facts how can you dismiss this Captains decision not to evacuate?
Regards,
GBD
Julio, I will tell you the type of pilot I would like on my flight.....I would like a pilot that uses all of his available resources to ensure a safe outcome. That includes communication, communication with the tower, RFF, cabin crew and anyone else that can offer valuable information. Once this pilot has collected all the available info to hand (camera, EICAS messages etc) they will possibly use DODAR or some other decision making tool to come up with their decision, which will, by virtue of the R, be reviewed so there should be an assessment of the initial decision.
Once again I reiterate......until we are in possession of all the facts how can you dismiss this Captains decision not to evacuate?
Regards,
GBD
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What help would DODAR be when the aircraft with all the occupants in it explodes. come on get real. This is not a classroom exercise. Peoples lives are at stake. You may get a few broken bones during the Evacuation process but that is a far better outcome than the alternative if luck wasn't on their side.
Yes we are paid to think as pilots. This particular incident though is black and white. there is no excuse for endangering everyone on board.
Yes we are paid to think as pilots. This particular incident though is black and white. there is no excuse for endangering everyone on board.
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So fair enough - no need for captain's involvement at all. If there is a fire automatics, brake to a halt fire on downwind side, escape slides deploy automatically as soon as the aircraft is at halt on the side away from the fire if appropriate.
If there is a decision to be made on evacuation - it means there are alternatives. It is illogical to require the captain make a decision but then say that there is no alternative to immediate evacuation. Hence there is no decision to make.
Yet, in this case instead of say 5% of pax evacuating having to be hospitalized, no-one was injured. For those worried about the short length of time to discharge a fire tender's load of fire retardant foam, have a look at how many were in the immediate response and how many Changi can get to an emergency rather than just those initial (very rapid) responders.
As I said before, none of us know what information and advice the captain had in this case that led to his decision not to evacuate. When or if we receive that information the decision can be assessed, but in this case by the results it was the right decision.
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but in this case by the results it was the right decision
So if I decided to shut both engines down and glide her in, would it be the right decision as long as everyone walks away?
was it also the right decision not to declare a Mayday?
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I guess it was also the right decision to continue beyond HKG to PVG after a dual eng flame out which the pilots were responsible for in the first place. after all the result was ok
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Well said, Ian. I agree there is a real learning opportunity here (as always).
And to enhance the learning opportunity, I admit that until recently I had no clue of the ICAO RFSS hand signals for indicating fire (location) and recommended evacuation (or not)...
See them here: Emergency Hand Signals
And to enhance the learning opportunity, I admit that until recently I had no clue of the ICAO RFSS hand signals for indicating fire (location) and recommended evacuation (or not)...
See them here: Emergency Hand Signals
Dammit Jabawocky,
That is a superb video. Unbelievably shocking. And yes, the most shocking part is the absence of an evacuation command.
Where is SQ with a comment on this incident? I certainly don't expect the local journo's in Singapore to dare ask some difficult questions regarding this.
That is a superb video. Unbelievably shocking. And yes, the most shocking part is the absence of an evacuation command.
Where is SQ with a comment on this incident? I certainly don't expect the local journo's in Singapore to dare ask some difficult questions regarding this.
b. Is it mandatory to follow company SOP ,always or sometimes or it depends?
I don't know if there are any wrinkles to the contrary under Singapore Air Law, but I certainly know what the law is in Australia, based on not just the air law, but at least one full bench of a Court of Appeal decision, the power of the pilot in command overrides any other consideration in an emergency, including any provision of an AFM/FCOM etc. to the contrary.
The relevant ICAO Annex, and the laws of CA/NZ/US/EU say more or less the same thing, but I can't quote any particular superior court precedents outside of Australia to confirm the conventional interpretation of the powers of the PIC.
As for this accident, based on half a century of knowledge (including fires on the ground) and experience, this aircraft should have been evacuated as soon as it came to a stop.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The CASA draft CASR Part 91 muddies the waters, surprise! surprise!!