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Citywing incident Isle of Man

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Citywing incident Isle of Man

Old 2nd Mar 2017, 10:09
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by peat View Post
He was sat there for possibly 20-30 seconds when the wind lifted it to a near vertical position onto its wingtip.
I don't think me or my colleague are drama queens but it was only pure luck that it didn't get blown over from the near vertical.
That would imply (simple geometry) that all 3 gears lifted off the ground.

It's hard to believe that the resulting damage would be restricted to a crushed tip tank. Are we now suggesting that the UK AAIB are complicit in papering over the cracks in Manx2's operation ?
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 11:43
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Yes all 3 wheels did lift off the ground.
It did come back down on the grass rather than the taxiway so maybe that's why there was not much damage, I remember it bounced after it came down.

From reading the AAIB report it said the source was the pilots form so maybe they didn't have any other info to go off?
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 12:33
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Based on what we do know, the aircraft landed in IOM at just above minimum reserve when the wind was gusting to around 56kts. This was following a diversion from BHD which is quite close. Most of us (myself included) put a bit more than plog fuel on that day. Just saying....
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 13:05
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by peat View Post
Yes all 3 wheels did lift off the ground.
It did come back down on the grass rather than the taxiway so maybe that's why there was not much damage, I remember it bounced after it came down.
Fair enough. The other eyewitness must have seen it from a different angle:

Originally Posted by tallaonehotel View Post
Witnessed LET410 being blown to almost tipping over this morning at Ronaldsway waiting at holding point A2.
The aircraft lifted from the tail onto it's left hand side mainwheel, the pilot did well to allow the aircraft to move forward and correct the tip.
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 13:58
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Does the fact that it was at A2 imply we are talking about something which took place before it even departed IOM in the first place?
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 16:06
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Airbus - we're talking about two separate incidents. The gust at A2 related to an incident from 2007. That aircraft never departed IOM and was towed back to stand.
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 16:48
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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We seem to be talking about two different events, one in 2007 (aircraft being blown sideways on the ground, subject of AAIB report linked to by a previous poster) and another in the last few days.
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 17:38
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Ahah, I understand now - I'll wake up at some point!
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 21:20
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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I cant understand UK CAA declaration that the incident is investigated by Czech CAA. It is not correct.

In the Czech Republic, local CAA (ÚCL Úřad pro civilní letectví) is the authority for state supervision under civil aviation. The are not allowed to provide any investigation of incidents. Their speaker, Mr. Hezký, declared for media:
"We are in contact with UK CAA that grounded the carrier and which is solving the event. We are trying for cooperation but it is rather giving informations and consultations from our side, in other way we are involved very little. We are not investigating the incident, we have no right to do it."

For investigation of air incidents and accidents ÚZPLN (Ústav pro odborné zjišťování příčin leteckých nehod) is appointed. They investigate evens at Czech territory and air space. According Chicago convention (ICAO), incident and accidents are investigated by the state, at witch territory the event occurs. ÚZPLN don't investigate this British airport incidents.
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Old 3rd Mar 2017, 22:54
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest are the companies now operating for Citiwing using the Eurovan callsign?, I was behind a Eurovan call sign into BHD yesterday
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 11:55
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Based on what we do know, the aircraft landed in IOM at just above minimum reserve when the wind was gusting to around 56kts. This was following a diversion from BHD which is quite close. Most of us (myself included) put a bit more than plog fuel on that day.
Personally I would have stayed on the ground on that particular day, the old adage "it is better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there, wishing you were down here" applies. Had Douglas been out of limits, the alternative endings are not good ... still, with that tailwind, their range downwind would have given them a fair few options inland.
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Old 4th Mar 2017, 18:31
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
Out of interest are the companies now operating for Citiwing using the Eurovan callsign?, I was behind a Eurovan call sign into BHD yesterday
Up to now the flights from the Isle of Man which are being operated by Sprintair do appear to be using Eurovan calls signs and VAA flight numbers are quoted on FR24.

The Cardiff -Anglesey service changed flight numbers and call signs to North Flying when they took over the route, presumably as this was an Vanair service operating solely in the U.K. This Welsh service operated under different terms to the IOM services.
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Old 5th Mar 2017, 11:15
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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How exactly are Citywing allowed to sell tickets for an aircraft with over 19 seats now? I thought that was one of the 'sticking points' of being a virtual airline with no ATOL etc.
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Old 5th Mar 2017, 12:21
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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The 2012 revision of the ATOL Regulations defined the role of ticket seller with an exemption to the requirement to hold an ATOL. I'm planning runway30 airlines even as I type................
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Old 5th Mar 2017, 21:45
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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If you are wholly responsible for the aircraft cost as a full charter and are selling seat tickets on that aircraft as the only ticket agent then you are in an identical position to an AOC operator operating their own aircraft - that also do not need an ATOL for seat only sales!

Independant oversight of some "less regulated" operators would be more welcome / increased ramp inspections - other than that there is ZERO problem with ticket agents and there is no real need to blow this out of proportion. The LET 410 is a very lightweight aircraft and obviously high wing - knowing the storm was coming - was the error of the ticket agent not to play safe and cancel flights or having their own SOP's or ops manual that defined the weather limits in agreement with the AOC operator "who will fly for food".

Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!

If you are a ticket agent chartering an aircraft you at least need an ops manual and a very structured crisis management plan that dovetails into the AOC operators. Just my opinion!
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Old 5th Mar 2017, 23:02
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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AIUI, there is a clear distinction between an AOC and an ATOL.

An AOC is there to protect the passenger's lives; an ATOL is there to protect the passenger's money.

Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions.

Evidence of a lack of effective operational oversight by the AOC holder would, in my mind, justify a regulator placing a stop on operations.
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Old 6th Mar 2017, 08:51
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
This should read:
Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft with narrow track, fuselage mounted landing gear on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
There are some very good reasons why some designers mount the landing gear in the wing of high winged aircraft (e.g. Dash 8, Fokker, Antonov, etc.).
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Old 6th Mar 2017, 20:53
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
They took off approx at 8:30. Wind was 29029g42kt.

egns 230820z 29029g42kt 5000 -ra few006 bkn009 bkn022 07/05 q0975 tempo 3000 ra bkn007
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 11:58
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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"Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions."

Sillert....

It was a general statement where it would be prudent for a responsible "ticket seller" to agree on operational parameters where they are happy for the AOC operator to cancel the flight on the grounds of safety. Which should have happened on this occasion - commander knew the forecast was for deterioration and still elected to continue beyond what was considered normal for the type of aircraft operated..... The bit you don't know is what commercial pressures the a/c operator may have been under to commercially operate the aircraft for contractual purposes....

My point was that the AOC operator has full and total operational control over the aircraft - when charterer / operator are two different parties!

It would still have been wise for agreement when to knock it off and let the storm roll through! Im not advocating in any way that a 3rd party interferes with a regulatory mechanism that exists for the safe operation of public transport aircraft!
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Old 7th Mar 2017, 13:07
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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The question is was the aircraft commander having a conversation with his Ops department back in the Czech Republic or the Ops department of the ticket seller in the IOM?
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