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Citywing incident Isle of Man

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Citywing incident Isle of Man

Old 28th Feb 2017, 21:32
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Do we have to turn this into another tedious brexit thread?
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 21:37
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Because Hearty, according to the CAA, the ticket seller has no financial or operational responsibility which remains with the airline. However, the ticket seller in this instance has designed the network, set the schedule, decides the capacity, sets the prices and makes operational decisions. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 21:50
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British Airways vs a two bob turboprop outfit flying for an odd setup, a setup which has had a fatal accident previously and walked away with zero responsibility. Not the same. Not by a long shot.

Vanair had less fatal accidents than British Airways. None actually.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 22:03
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Yes Dufo, of course Manx2/Citywing have never had a fatal accident because they are just a ticket seller.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 22:15
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British Airways has been operating for decades, carrying tens of millions of passengers every year. It's an airline. It flies its own aircraft on most flights. It has its own safety systems in place. When things go wrong the buck stops with BA. BA don't just mess around saying 'we are just a ticket seller'.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 22:18
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Just got a Citywing Reminder for my flight later in the week look at the last two lines note change of airline

Unchecked baggage. You may take one item of hand baggage onto the aircraft free of charge, as long as it fits into the luggage gauge sizer at check-in and weighs less than 6kg. The dimensions of the sizer are: Length: 50cm, Width: 35cm and Height: 22cm including handles and wheels. Any item of baggage larger or heavier than this must be checked in. When you board the aircraft, crew or ground staff will place your hand luggage in the hold unless it is small enough to fit under the seat. You can then collect your hand luggage as soon as you disembark from the aircraft.

P8 Flights operated by Sprint Air.
Cardiff - Anglesey Flights are operated by North Flying.

This is the bottom of the old ticket
Unchecked baggage. You may take one item of hand baggage onto the aircraft free of charge, as long as it fits into the luggage gauge sizer at check-in and weighs less than 6kg. The dimensions of the sizer are: Length: 50cm, Width: 35cm and Height: 22cm including handles and wheels. Any item of baggage larger or heavier than this must be checked in. When you board the aircraft, crew or ground staff will place your hand luggage in the hold unless it is small enough to fit under the seat. You can then collect your hand luggage as soon as you disembark from the aircraft.

Operator Van Air Europe
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 22:22
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Vanair provides ACMI services to Citywing and it had nothing to do with crash in Cork. That was done with another ACMI operator (with crappy safety record). In days of SAFA safety rating, you are quickly on the EU black list and turn the lights off.


Similar (misleading) connection can be seen in news about 'Turkish airlines B747 crash'. Things are not always as they seem..
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 22:44
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While we're talking about misleading connections, Dufo, the EU blacklist includes only foreign airlines (outside EU) and not EU licenced carriers.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 23:02
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If we speak about the List of banned airlines this is true, only non-member states are there. SAFA rating above 4 (if I remember correctly) for member state airlines will ground you under AOC ops.
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Old 1st Mar 2017, 10:17
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No I am not suggesting leaving or staying in the EU will make flying more or elss safer .- and as the isle of man is not in the Eu but seemingly conforms with Eu regulations it isnt going to make a difference there.It was just a comment about the views on Eu bureaucracy are usually over simplified.

As for the isle of Mans status it is not in the EU but it certainly isn't a country or a state or a nation either. It is a Crown Dependency which allows it to make its own laws but for foreign affairs and defence it depends on and defers to the UK , hence my neither fish nor foul remark.

All of which was intended to underline that the whole business very odd from the start and doesn't seem to have got a lot clearer by now either
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Old 1st Mar 2017, 13:36
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I understand that Van Air have had their Operating Licence taken away.
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Old 1st Mar 2017, 14:37
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A rare chance to quote Manx Radio:

Van Air grounded over Storm Doris flight

Problems for Island-based Citywing have deepened, after its carrier Van Air Europe lost its Air Operators Certificate.

The suspension which has grounded the Czech-registered airline, has been confirmed by the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

The move follows an incident last week (23 Feb) in which a Van Air Europe plane operating a flight for ticket seller Citywing, was forced to abandon its landing in Belfast due to deteriorating weather conditions.

The aircraft returned to the Island and landed safely, but was held on the runway for several hours, unable to taxi to the apron, due to the high winds.

All Van Air flights have been grounded since last Thursday and Citywing has had to operate a revised schedule using a second stand-in, Sprint Air.

today (1 March) the company published a further revised schedule for flights to Belfast, Gloucester and Glasgow over the next 48 hours.

Managing Director David Buck says they are working on a long term plan for flights and are refunding people as quickly as they can where appropriate, he has again apologised for the disruption to passengers' travel plans.

Anyone with urgent enquiries should contact Citywing’s Reservations on 0871 200 0440.
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Old 1st Mar 2017, 15:47
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There must be much more than this event which have caused loss of operating license.
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Old 1st Mar 2017, 17:03
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Possibly dufo but all I'm seeing is a poor article by a local radio station.

Avherald said last week that the "The UK CAA added on Feb 25th 2017, that as long as Czech Republic's CAA is investigating, the operating permit has been taken away from Van Air Europe"

The radio article mentions a loss of AOC and a suspension in consecutive sentences. There appears to be no publication of any kind from any CAA.
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Old 1st Mar 2017, 18:02
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So far - Van Air Europe's Let L-410 are located

OK-TCA 1st March CWL (Cardiff) - LGG (Liege) as VAA730P - UHE (Kunovice, Czech Republic) as VAA731P

OK-LAZ 26th Feb. IOM - LGG as VAA930P - UHE as VAA931P
involved in incident at IOM - 23rd Feb.

OK-RDA 1st March IOM - LGG as VAA930P
presumably on its way to UHE

OK-UBA still at Ronaldsway

OK-ASA Last known in Dubai do in cargo flights
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 00:37
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I have looked carefully on the web for some sort of confirmation that Van Air's AOC has been revoked. I am unable to find anything to confirm this. As a Czech airline, I imagine the Czech CAA would want to publish any revocation of an AOC on their website - nothing obvious appears as yet on the Czech CAA website

I suspect that a journalist at Manx Radio has got confused with the UK CAA blocking air transport permissions in the UK, with the AOC which would be under the jurisdiction of the Czech CAA

If Van Air really had lost their AOC, I imagine the UK and IoM CAA would very quickly prevent anything with a V9 airline code from operating. Flights were still operating for Citywing under the V9 airline code in the early evening of Wed 01-March

Edit - just noticed on flightradar24 that the Anglesey-Cardiff flights which used to be operated by Van Air under a V9 code were operated not just by North Flying using a 19-seat Metroliner, but rather more surprisingly they went under a M3 code and not a V9 code. https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/oy-npe
Conversely, flights to/from the Isle of Man using a 34-seat Saab 340 show up on FR24 as operating under a V9 flight code
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/sp-kpr

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 2nd Mar 2017 at 01:04.
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 09:24
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Originally Posted by speedrestriction
I have always thought that safety was improved incrementally on the basis of learning from past errors and experience.

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/let-...8-january-2007
I was 1 of 2 people who witnessed that incident (unless ATC saw it as well)
Reading that report downplays the incident alot!

I don't believe for one second the pilot was about to turn around and go back to the gate. He was sitting at a hold and was side on to the wind direction. (Im not a pilot so I don't know whether you are supposed to turn into the wind direction when at a hold).
He was sat there for possibly 20-30 seconds when the wind lifted it to a near vertical position onto its wingtip. Weirdly it then looked and sounded like the pilot put some power on (unless it was some odd noise affect of the wind hitting the a/c or props at that angle?) and the a/c pivoted left on its wing tip whilst moving slightly forward, ran into the grass which made the a/c bounce a bit then drop back onto its wheels. It then carried on perpendicular to the taxiway for approx 5m then came to a stop.

I don't think me or my colleague are drama queens but it was only pure luck that it didn't get blown over from the near vertical.
Fair enough nothing did happen and no-one was hurt but it was shocking to witness it and its more shocking to read that report to see it written out like it was no big deal.
It also seems like they have not learnt from that incident at all.
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 09:29
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hey, Czech here, local aircraft register is available at Výpis z leteckého rejstříku (only Czech version works) but there is nothing interesting about aircrafts, just serials etc and you can see not all the fleet belongs to VanAir.


Our local CAA denied info that they are investigating anything. They stated they are not investigating anything simple because it is not their case. They admit they are in contact with UK CAA but it means providing info and consultations. They don't even have a right to investigate anything in this case. Case = so far everything goes around bad landing.


Local AIR ACCIDENTS INVESTIGATION INSTITUTE (which is not CAA) and is involved in such an investigations here said: "yes, we have a report about landing in bad conditions means strong wind, but we don't have any official statement from any side so far, we just know what was on internet"
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 10:09
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Originally Posted by peat
He was sat there for possibly 20-30 seconds when the wind lifted it to a near vertical position onto its wingtip.
I don't think me or my colleague are drama queens but it was only pure luck that it didn't get blown over from the near vertical.
That would imply (simple geometry) that all 3 gears lifted off the ground.

It's hard to believe that the resulting damage would be restricted to a crushed tip tank. Are we now suggesting that the UK AAIB are complicit in papering over the cracks in Manx2's operation ?
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Old 2nd Mar 2017, 11:43
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Yes all 3 wheels did lift off the ground.
It did come back down on the grass rather than the taxiway so maybe that's why there was not much damage, I remember it bounced after it came down.

From reading the AAIB report it said the source was the pilots form so maybe they didn't have any other info to go off?
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