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Turkish Airlines cargo 747 crashes in Kyrgyzstan

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Turkish Airlines cargo 747 crashes in Kyrgyzstan

Old 16th Jan 2017, 16:29
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Is it something to do with freight operations-less experienced less capable crew ?? Less well maintained aircraft, greater crew fatigue ?
Read the accident reports and get back to us with a more specific question
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 16:31
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Go around, cargo shift. Possible?
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 16:34
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What the company says . . .

"The TC-MCL registered, BOEING 747-400 typed aircraft owned by our company, was on her route from HONG KONG to BISHKEK when it crashed over Kyrgyz airspace approaching BISHKEK-Manas Airport on January 16, 2017 at 1:20 GMT time (4:20 am Turkish time)

"We are very sorry to announce that Captain Pilot Ibrahim Gürcan DIRANCI, Co-Pilot Kazim ÖNDÜL, Load Master Melih ASLAN and Flight Technician Ihsan KOCA passed away in this sad incident. Due to the fact that the aircraft crashed into the edge of a residential area, 33 civil people passed away along our 4 crew members, according to the first information we received. We want to express our deepest thoughts and condolences to the families of our crew members and the Kyrgyz people.

"There is no clear and confirmed information about the reasons for the incident yet. Our Company has commissioned two captain pilots at Manas Airport to investigate the accident together with authorities. Furthermore, our technic staff is on their way to the site. Also the investigation has started by both, Kyrgyz and Turkish Ministries of Transport and Communication and the General Directorate of Civil Aviation.

"We are in constant contact with the Ministry of Transport and General Directorate of Civil Aviation, Turkish Embassy in Bishkek-Kyrgyzstan, Airport Authority and Kyrgyzstan Civil Aviation Authority. Clear and confirmed information about the accident will be shared with the public when available.

"The flight with the cargo from Hong Kong to Bishkek-Istanbul was airborne as planned, after all the checks were carried out, and was on her way approaching Bishkek Airport without encountering any setback or problems during the flight.

"The crew rested for 69 hours in Hong Kong before the related flight and checked out for the flight to complete the 6-hour flight from Hong Kong to Bishkek. The airplane was lifted with a planned total of 85,618 kg "general cargo" load safely. There are no faults recorded in the technical log book of the aircraft.

"The crashed aircraft is a B747-400 freighter, manufactured in 2003 and with a cargo capacity of 116.462 kg. As of December 10, 2015, she was in the fleet of ACT Airlines. Maintenance of the related aircraft was carried on in timely manner and according to the aviation standards like the other aircrafts in our fleet.

"Our team which we lost were experienced and specialised flight crew that has carried out their professions with great success for many years. Captain İbrahim Gürcan DİRANCI and First Officer Kazım ÖNDÜL are ex-military pilots who have represented Turkish Air Force for many years abroad. Our Captain has a total of 10,821 flight hours of which 833 hours are on B744. Our First Officer has a total of 5910 flight hours of which 1771 hours are on B744.

"Our Load Master Melih ASLAN from the flight crew has been working in our Company since 2007 with vocational training and competence of total of 14 years of Load Master experience. Our Flight Technician Ihsan KOCA has served as a technician in the Turkish Air Forces for many years and has been serving in our Company since 2006.

"According to the first findings, it is understood that the reason of the related accident is not caused by technical reasons or loading related factors. The actual reason of the accident will be shared with the public after the inspection of aircraft and the place where the accident happened.

"All losses including life and property occurred in the accident is under coverage of insurance.

"Because of the accident, as ACT Airlines, once again we condole with the mourning people that lost their relatives, Kyrgyz people and Turkish Civil Aviation; and we sincerely share their grief."

ACT AIRLINES INC.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 16:39
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Itsa question i have raised before but there have been a lot of 747F crashes compared to the vastly more numerous pax versions. Is it something to do with freight operations-less experienced less capable crew ?? Less well maintained aircraft, greater crew fatigue ?
The last few 74F losses:

National Airlines Flight 102 = load shift

Asiana Airlines Flight 991 = hold fire

UPS Airlines Flight 6 = hold fire
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 16:51
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What happens if you get no retard from the AFDS at 25ft...

Indeed, the aircraft will keep on flying happily a few feet along the runway, in ground effect, with Vref.

I do not want to speculate though.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 16:59
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According to the first findings, it is understood that the reason of the related accident is not caused by technical reasons or loading related factors. The actual reason of the accident will be shared with the public after the inspection of aircraft and the place where the accident happened.
Little early to be confirming this?
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 17:20
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Little early to be confirming this?
They lifted one recorder. Probably they read it already?
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 17:40
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Originally Posted by Kulverstukas View Post


From another point.

And looks like its not airfield fence but NDB/VOR fence:

https://yandex.ru/maps/-/CZXgqQK9
or https://goo.gl/maps/QamxfrwGNDC2

Shoot from North to SE direction
Originally Posted by Sam Asama View Post
Kulverstukas: Thanks (as usual) for your contributions already to this thread.
Yes, thanks once again for your insight in this area. The vertical yagi antenna next to the striped building looks to me like a 75 MHz marker beacon antenna which would normally be on the extended runway centerline.

Looks like the FR24 data is accurate, they were indeed lined up on the runway 26 and went past the end sometime after the last data point was transmitted.

Originally Posted by dfstrottersfan View Post
Very often FR24 lands you on a parallel non existent runway or hundreds of meters after or before
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Only for a small minority of aircraft that don't have GPS-powered ADS-B.

Not relevant here.
I agree with Dave. This data doesn't seem to be MLAT or interpolated in the minutes prior to the mishap. FR24 and FlightAware use separate networks although some folks (don't ask me how I know ) simultaneously feed data to both.

Originally Posted by jackcarls0n View Post
747-400 is quite a capable aircraft. Something must have gone horribly wrong for a crash to happen. They would have most probably planned on an auto land for the weather condition at the time. And if autoland wasn't working, then the minimums would be for a CAT 1 approach, the weather is well below CAT 1. But that depends on the company's SOP. I wonder if icing had a role to play. The runway is pretty long to land without speed brakes working. Something didn't go well and they performed a go-around?
Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
There is another possibility - The NGFMC in the 744 generates the characteristic speeds when VNAV selected on the GA... It is also unbelievably unreliable being prone to failures giving inappropriate speed generation and/or complete loss of Autothrottle/VNAV/LNAV functions. Not at all what a tired crew needs going round from a Cat II approach with shitty weather on minimums.
With that weather, I would expect a fully coupled approach and an automated go around which is normally not a difficult maneuver. However, I've had the automation kick off just as the power came up on a coupled go around and there are definitely a few seconds of recognition time, especially if other warnings are present at the same time.

Widebody freighters do seem to crash much more often than widebody airliners in the past couple of decades. Whether the standards for pax and cargo flying should be the same has long been hotly debated here and elsewhere.

The high groundspeed rapidly bleeding off on final in the ADS-B data may indicate a decreasing tailwind or perhaps a late configuration with the power back trying to slow down. We will know more in a year or two when the report comes out.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 18:03
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FR24 was able to recover additional ADS-B position data that leads to the crash site on the corner of the nearby village:

Initial ADS-B data recorded the aircraft at 43.061371, 74.478104 and 2,375 ft AMSL at 01:16:39 UTC. Efforts to decode additional data resulted in an further 38 seconds of ADS-B data. In this data, the last recorded position of the aircraft is 43.056816, 74.440155, 2350 ft AMSL at 01:17:16.5 UTC.
See: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/c...al-ads-b-data/
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 18:35
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Capt had only 833 hours in type? A bit light?
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 18:36
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Airbubba;

I am by no means a believer and accepter of FR24 data for the purposes of accurate, reliable investigative processes such as we see here and in other events. I've taken a look at the linked ADS-B page, 2nd image:



...and I'm wondering, if the airplane was actually on the ILS, why does ADS-B data show it so high - or is FR24 data not accurate in altitude?

In any case, I remain unconvinced that it's a useful tool for finding out what happened and I suspect those that do actual investigative work including the interpretation of the recorders, will concur.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 18:40
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Widebody freighters do seem to crash much more often than widebody airliners in the past couple of decades. Whether the standards for pax and cargo flying should be the same has long been hotly debated here and elsewhere.
If hamstrung by pax carrying hazmat and other riskier cargo restrictions, there'd likely not be a cargo company around beyond those carrying flowers from South America. An over exaggeration of course but given the nature of the business, cargo outfits won't achieve parity with the safety record of pax carrying airlines when looked at in totality.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 19:06
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B744 Go around procedure :

" Go Around "
TOGA,Flap 20
+ CLIMB, Gear up
400', LNAV or HDG Sel
3000' ( or less depending on your SOP ), VNAV or FLCH set speed
Follow missed approach procedure for that runway
Auto pilot can be reengaged in stable conditions.

Problem 1

Normal pitch for go around on 4 engines is about 12.5 degrees ( 3 engines,10 degrees )
If the pitch is insufficient , aircraft may continue to sink and impact will follow .

Problem 2

If asymmetric condition occurs during the go around and not fully countered by rudder,
A/C will roll over and your time to impact is measured in seconds.
Also, if the autopilot was maintained prior to the go around, a failed engine still needs rudder application due to the AP kicking off.

Problem 3

If TOGA mode fails, a No-TOGA go around must be done. This needs practice and plenty of training.

Problem 4

Regardless of the altimeter setting, the GPWS would have alerted the crew with a " TOO LOW, Terrain " or other warning and this requires immediate MAX THRUST setting combined with 20 degree initial pitch up or even more ( PITCH LIMIT ANGLE ) reaction from the pilot and a check that the speed brakes are in .

The list goes on...

The key here is PILOT TRAINING ,COMPANY PROCEDURES, Crew CRM !
Far from blaiming anyone at this point, one can see all the trappings of a go around under
adverse weather conditions , Heavy landing weight, high elevation if unprepared.

The 747 is a dandy to fly but can be a handful with high controls loading if out of trim and poor thrust/ pitch management.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 19:15
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Originally Posted by PJ2 View Post
Airbubba;

...and I'm wondering, if the airplane was actually on the ILS, why does ADS-B data show it so high - or is FR24 data not accurate in altitude?
The altitude is normally uncorrected barometric data from what I've seen although I've heard it claimed that it can be geometric GPS altitude. Some ADS-B viewing software, e.g. RadarBox, lets you set a transition altitude/level and enter an altimeter setting but I don't think the standard FR24 webpage lets you do that.

The position data seems to be spot on in this case and you can see other aircraft back taxi on runway 26 and turn around at the end on the playback so I don't think there is much of a map shift in the FR24/Google Earth depiction.

But, even with an altitude error, it seems odd that the descent continues halfway down the runway in the plot.

Originally Posted by douglas744 View Post
B744 Go around procedure :

...Auto pilot can be reengaged in stable conditions.
Wouldn't the autopilot normally remain engaged for a low-vis go around from a coupled CAT II approach?

Obviously something that wasn't normal happened in this case...
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 19:19
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In any case, I remain unconvinced that it's a useful tool for finding out what happened and I suspect those that do actual investigative work including the interpretation of the recorders, will concur.
On the contrary, board investigators will consider all data available, subject to their limitations.

In fact FR24 data have been requested by investigators in several high profile cases, including the Germanwings crash in the Alps and the Metrojet crash in Egypt.

One difference: sites like FR24 can provide investigators with the full set of raw ADS-B data, which we don't get from the basic website. Having access to the raw data enables better analysis of the data's characteristics and limitations.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 19:29
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Douglas744 is correct with his explanations.
However, no TO/GA mode is not really a big issue. Your hands should always follow the throttles anyhow and move them forward on a GA. ('Basic airmanship).

It is not possible to overboost the engines if the EEC's are operative.
1 click of the TOGA: 2000'/min. ROC, annunciated as THR ( the thrust needed for a requested vertical profile)
Second click: Full GA thrust, Annunciated as THR REF ( all available thrust)

LNAV or HDG SEL at 400'
VNAV at 1000' ( Boeing procedures)


Some more observations:
TO/GA will remain armed until 2 seconds after 5ft. RA ( some manuals state 2 sec. after touchdown)

As I mentioned before, in case of no auto retard of the AFDS at 25ft. RA, the aircraft will not touch down and fly happily a couple of feet high With Vref along the runway.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 19:51
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Originally Posted by Icelanta View Post
As I mentioned before, in case of no auto retard of the AFDS at 25ft. RA, the aircraft will not touch down and fly happily a couple of feet high With Vref along the runway.
It seems like I've flown with an EGWPS or AFDS update that will annunciate this condition as 'LONG FLARE', does this sound right?
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 20:37
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It appears from the maps that that the village (impact area) is situated on a ridgeline that is significantly higher in elevation than the airfield. I can't find that information readily, though. How much higher, and would that have been enough to affect this go around?
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 20:40
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I read it was a fuel stop. We usually stop in Kazakhstan for fuel on that type of fight/routing. I have only flown the plane about 6 years. One time autoland was planned, but it leveled off at 50' and wouldn't come down. The -400 , seems to have more automation errors now as they get older.
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Old 16th Jan 2017, 21:35
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Can anybody remind me an accident that happened in bad weather (near the minima) for the reason other then pilot mistake. I just can't recall.
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