Indonesian Citylink Pilot
And relevant indeed to this thread as the question still to be asked is why did the FO do nothing?
Come on, i don't need to be a doctor to asses that video that the guy is not fit to fly
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Heck for all we know so far, he could have been having a medical issue.
The elephant in the room is the fact that he was able to make it to the aircraft in that condition, with nobody stepping up. That's a cultural issue, and nobody cares if that's company-wide, country-wide or continent-wide.
All aviation professionals (and for once, that includes security/TSA) are part of the swiss cheese, and every single person has the responsibility to make sure the holes don't line up to cause an incident.
The elephant in the room is the fact that he was able to make it to the aircraft in that condition, with nobody stepping up. That's a cultural issue, and nobody cares if that's company-wide, country-wide or continent-wide.
Or better, screen every boy and girl before flight, in indonesia.
Indonesian culture (particularly Javanese) is very non-confrontational. ....
When I lived in Jakarta, an expat employee of the oil company I worked for nearly died after he was stabbed by a driver. The expat had bawled out the driver, in public, after the driver had got his truck stuck in a mudhole two days running. The driver lost so much face that the only thing he felt he could do was kill his supervisor. The expression 'running amok' comes from Indonesia.
Concerning the captain's behaviour in the security video, one thing that comes to mind is an experience that I had years ago, when I was helping a driver who was in the first stages of a diabetic coma. I was convinced that the driver was extremely drunk, until the ambulance arrived and the paramedics asked the right questions.
Let's keep this realistic, eh!
My previous comments referred to the actions (and inactions) of the security guys, and only them.
Bearing in mind their "position in life", and that they are not airline employees, and the number of them spread around the countless airports of the Indonesian archipelago, it is highly unlikely that they will ever constitute a reliable part of any screening process for drunk or ill pilots. Perhaps, with time, training and a strong management ethos of support they might be coaxed into reporting aberrant behaviour. Maybe they did, in this case. Who knows?
But it is extremely unlikely that they would, in the foreseeable future, ever directly confront a pilot who was acting irrationally.
But every crew member on that aircraft who had contact with the pilot could and should have been able and willing to confront him over his behaviour. Again, maybe they did.
As for the CEO et al falling on their swords, let's see if that actually happens. Don't overlook the proviso mentioned in another previous post.
Personally, I'd prefer to see them stick around and fix the problem(s).
And the problem, as I see it, is not that a single pilot got drunk and reported for duty but that he got as far as a pre-flight PA announcement before the passengers revolted and stopped the flight.
Damned right the FO (and pusser) has some explaining to do.
Now, was the pilot actually inebriated? Please see my previous comments concerning "unbelievable excuses".
If the pilot was actually just ill, then the CEO's are off the hook too, right?
And, for the record, "running amok" is traditionally regarded as temporary, aberrant behaviour and is both understandable and excusable. Even mass murder - refer "non-confrontational" in my previous post.
And finally, as for banning Indonesian airlines again (eg Garuda) because of this incident, that logic, if applied equitably, would see LH banned based on the actions of the German Wings pilot.
There have been significant improvements in the Indonesian aviation industry over the last 10 - 15 years, achieved with the considerable assistance of aircraft manufacturers (protecting their products reputation) and foreign governments (protecting the skins of their travelling citizens).
Is it all perfect now? Hell no.
What is important now is that the effort continues and that achievements are maintained. Not so easy during times of recession. We'll see how that goes too.
Bearing in mind their "position in life", and that they are not airline employees, and the number of them spread around the countless airports of the Indonesian archipelago, it is highly unlikely that they will ever constitute a reliable part of any screening process for drunk or ill pilots. Perhaps, with time, training and a strong management ethos of support they might be coaxed into reporting aberrant behaviour. Maybe they did, in this case. Who knows?
But it is extremely unlikely that they would, in the foreseeable future, ever directly confront a pilot who was acting irrationally.
But every crew member on that aircraft who had contact with the pilot could and should have been able and willing to confront him over his behaviour. Again, maybe they did.
As for the CEO et al falling on their swords, let's see if that actually happens. Don't overlook the proviso mentioned in another previous post.
Personally, I'd prefer to see them stick around and fix the problem(s).
And the problem, as I see it, is not that a single pilot got drunk and reported for duty but that he got as far as a pre-flight PA announcement before the passengers revolted and stopped the flight.
Damned right the FO (and pusser) has some explaining to do.
Now, was the pilot actually inebriated? Please see my previous comments concerning "unbelievable excuses".
If the pilot was actually just ill, then the CEO's are off the hook too, right?
And, for the record, "running amok" is traditionally regarded as temporary, aberrant behaviour and is both understandable and excusable. Even mass murder - refer "non-confrontational" in my previous post.
And finally, as for banning Indonesian airlines again (eg Garuda) because of this incident, that logic, if applied equitably, would see LH banned based on the actions of the German Wings pilot.
There have been significant improvements in the Indonesian aviation industry over the last 10 - 15 years, achieved with the considerable assistance of aircraft manufacturers (protecting their products reputation) and foreign governments (protecting the skins of their travelling citizens).
Is it all perfect now? Hell no.
What is important now is that the effort continues and that achievements are maintained. Not so easy during times of recession. We'll see how that goes too.
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The indonesians needs to face reality, and change.
I respect cultures but keep cultures on the ground, not in the air.
I respect cultures but keep cultures on the ground, not in the air.
Earlier this year an American Airlines pilot was forcibly dragged off the cockpit -- in front of horrified passengers -- before failing two sobriety tests and arrested for alcohol intoxication.
Also as discussed right here on pprune this past summer in Scotland two Canadian pilots (the Captain and the Co-Pilot) were both hauled from the cockpit and arrested for being drunk.
Just six weeks later two United pilots were also arrested at the same airport for being drunk.
And this year we also saw an Alaskan Airlines 737 pilot charged for actually flying two segments full of passengers while having a Blood Alcohol Content three times the legal limit.
That wasn't even the worse. A JetBlue Captain was charged in April for actually drinking while flying the plane, from Orlando to New York, with 151 passengers on board. His co-pilot later testified that he saw the Captain drank "an unknown beverage" during the flight, and on a previous flight, yet said nothing. The Captain was only caught due to a random post-flight test.
Yet I didn't hear a peep from you about banning UK, Canadian and US airlines from European airspace?
But due to Indonesian culture, there is no accountability in some cases and they simply get let loose after an apology.
And yes, some of them have undoubtedly relapsed. But I guess it's ok for Western pilots to get a second chance, but not for Asian pilots, right?
If this Citilink pilot was indeed intoxicated then the press will ensure that he will get the book thrown at him. But let's not pretend this is an Asian or Indonesian "cultural" issue when all the other drunk-pilot examples above make it clear that it's not. Prejudice and racism take on many forms.
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Drunk or Stoned?
Wondering if the initial intoxication tests checked for THC.
If not, it may explain the initial negative results.
I hope, for the pilot's sake, it's not the case.
If not, it may explain the initial negative results.
I hope, for the pilot's sake, it's not the case.
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Glad to see the posts above pointing out how inane the posts are blaming Indonesian culture on this. They are particularly inane because Indonesia has relatively low alcohol consumption rates.
Also, there is no information on whether the security guards subsequently notified superiors, or whether the FO was also taking some kind of action. Posters have just jumped to a bunch of uninformed conclusions based on their prejudices.
It is true that Indonesian culture is polite and generally avoids conflict, but in my business experience Indonesians will engage in conflict as appropriate. It's also true that Indonesians avoid blame. However I've found that behaviour in almost every culture I've worked in, witnessing senior executives from western countries completely annihilate juniors' careers to protect themselves.
I actually wonder if many of these self-appointed behavioural experts actually work in asia, because although many of the cultural qualities discussed exist, they are nowhere near as dominating as so often described on this forum. They certainly need negotiating, as do the negative aspects of western cultural behaviours as well.
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Really, testpanel?
Earlier this year an American Airlines pilot was forcibly dragged off the cockpit -- in front of horrified passengers -- before failing two sobriety tests and arrested for alcohol intoxication.
Also as discussed right here on pprune this past summer in Scotland two Canadian pilots (the Captain and the Co-Pilot) were both hauled from the cockpit and arrested for being drunk.
Just six weeks later two United pilots were also arrested at the same airport for being drunk.
And this year we also saw an Alaskan Airlines 737 pilot charged for actually flying two segments full of passengers while having a Blood Alcohol Content three times the legal limit.
That wasn't even the worse. A JetBlue Captain was charged in April for actually drinking while flying the plane, from Orlando to New York, with 151 passengers on board. His co-pilot later testified that he saw the Captain drank "an unknown beverage" during the flight, and on a previous flight, yet said nothing. The Captain was only caught due to a random post-flight test.
Yet I didn't hear a peep from you about banning UK, Canadian and US airlines from European airspace?
Again, really? In the US, Canada and Europe many airline pilots previously charged for intoxication are now back in the cockpit of various airlines. ALPA (the union) fought very hard to establish a pilot rehab program.
And yes, some of them have undoubtedly relapsed. But I guess it's ok for Western pilots to get a second chance, but not for Asian pilots, right?
If this Citilink pilot was indeed intoxicated then the press will ensure that he will get the book thrown at him. But let's not pretend this is an Asian or Indonesian "cultural" issue when all the other drunk-pilot examples above make it clear that it's not. Prejudice and racism take on many forms.
Earlier this year an American Airlines pilot was forcibly dragged off the cockpit -- in front of horrified passengers -- before failing two sobriety tests and arrested for alcohol intoxication.
Also as discussed right here on pprune this past summer in Scotland two Canadian pilots (the Captain and the Co-Pilot) were both hauled from the cockpit and arrested for being drunk.
Just six weeks later two United pilots were also arrested at the same airport for being drunk.
And this year we also saw an Alaskan Airlines 737 pilot charged for actually flying two segments full of passengers while having a Blood Alcohol Content three times the legal limit.
That wasn't even the worse. A JetBlue Captain was charged in April for actually drinking while flying the plane, from Orlando to New York, with 151 passengers on board. His co-pilot later testified that he saw the Captain drank "an unknown beverage" during the flight, and on a previous flight, yet said nothing. The Captain was only caught due to a random post-flight test.
Yet I didn't hear a peep from you about banning UK, Canadian and US airlines from European airspace?
Again, really? In the US, Canada and Europe many airline pilots previously charged for intoxication are now back in the cockpit of various airlines. ALPA (the union) fought very hard to establish a pilot rehab program.
And yes, some of them have undoubtedly relapsed. But I guess it's ok for Western pilots to get a second chance, but not for Asian pilots, right?
If this Citilink pilot was indeed intoxicated then the press will ensure that he will get the book thrown at him. But let's not pretend this is an Asian or Indonesian "cultural" issue when all the other drunk-pilot examples above make it clear that it's not. Prejudice and racism take on many forms.
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Wing Nut is correct - the culture is very different - I guess if you have 140+ million people in Java mainly living in one storey buildings in VERY close proximity you develope a culture of not making waves - or you spend all your time fighting the neighbours and your family.
Things are changing there - the fact the passengers kicked off is a very interesting development - but it takes a long time to change things anywhere. The Western "light the fires, kick the tyres" attitude has almost disapeared but it took decades to eliminate it
Things are changing there - the fact the passengers kicked off is a very interesting development - but it takes a long time to change things anywhere. The Western "light the fires, kick the tyres" attitude has almost disapeared but it took decades to eliminate it
Excessive blood sugar perhaps?
I read somewhere that can manifest itself as "drunkeness"
I read somewhere that can manifest itself as "drunkeness"
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Well I don't see you making some of the broad-based criticisms others are making. However, I do think you are making assumptions about the security guards. It actually seems to me in the video that the security guard at the bottom left is concerned and may be heading off to tell someone. Another consideration is that all security guards have a narrow role and are not likely to step out of that role for fear of criticism - in any country. Is their role to apprehend suspect drunken pilots? I can imagine anyone in their position thinking that the pilot is not going to make it on to the plane without someone pulling him up. As has been discussed above it seems that in many countries pilot safeguard systems are not at the level of passenger safeguard systems. So it's better to look at the systems and not the individuals, and I imagine that is being done now. This is a global issue. In many industries where there are high risk roles it's almost impossible to access a workplace without undergoing impairment testing. It seems in many countries, including countries in the west, flying an aircraft is less well regulated. This is not about asian culture this is about the aviation industry lagging behind many safe work systems. And given recent events in western countries any attempt to blame asian culture dilutes the need for contemporary safe systems of work that seem to be missing in aviation. Forget drug or alcohol impairment, what about fatigue? The aviation industry, sadly, is falling behind other industries when it comes to managing human error. And most professionals in the industry refuse to admit it.
How did he get so far ???
What is missing here is any real knowledge of what was (or wasn't) already happening to address the pilot's incapacity.
It is entirely possible that the security guys, purser and / or F/O had already initiated some intervention; but then, maybe not.
Maybe there were already police and airport authorities scratching at the door when the passengers revolted. But that is not what is being reported.
It would be very interesting to know if that was actually already happening.
Having passengers walk off a plane because they perceived that the pilot was drunk is not a good look for any airline. If in doubt, ask the airline executives who chose resignation as a consequence of this incident.
You are (almost) entirely correct. This is not the first time that a pilot has reported for work while incapacitated and it surely won't be the last; anywhere in the world. So any systematic control needs to address two requirements:
a) That incapacitated crew are identified and prevented from assuming their duties for obvious safety and operational reasons. It seems that self-policing and an honesty policy have some shortcomings in this regard.
b) That this process is transparent to the paying customers. It must occur long before the affected crew member ever gets near an airplane.
Many industries with the same problems have adopted either random or blanket drug and alcohol testing. I will risk the squeals of indignation and suggest that perhaps the aviation industry needs to take a look at this approach too.
And yes, bud_leon, this post does not address fatigue. But this thread was never about fatigue.
And I'm not sure that the two can or should be treated as related anyway, other than in a very general manner. So I'll leave that one to you.
As for Indonesia, please don't under-estimate the extent of alcohol and drug use. They are far more widely used than is commonly perceived or acknowledged.
It is entirely possible that the security guys, purser and / or F/O had already initiated some intervention; but then, maybe not.
Maybe there were already police and airport authorities scratching at the door when the passengers revolted. But that is not what is being reported.
It would be very interesting to know if that was actually already happening.
Having passengers walk off a plane because they perceived that the pilot was drunk is not a good look for any airline. If in doubt, ask the airline executives who chose resignation as a consequence of this incident.
You are (almost) entirely correct. This is not the first time that a pilot has reported for work while incapacitated and it surely won't be the last; anywhere in the world. So any systematic control needs to address two requirements:
a) That incapacitated crew are identified and prevented from assuming their duties for obvious safety and operational reasons. It seems that self-policing and an honesty policy have some shortcomings in this regard.
b) That this process is transparent to the paying customers. It must occur long before the affected crew member ever gets near an airplane.
Many industries with the same problems have adopted either random or blanket drug and alcohol testing. I will risk the squeals of indignation and suggest that perhaps the aviation industry needs to take a look at this approach too.
And yes, bud_leon, this post does not address fatigue. But this thread was never about fatigue.
And I'm not sure that the two can or should be treated as related anyway, other than in a very general manner. So I'll leave that one to you.
As for Indonesia, please don't under-estimate the extent of alcohol and drug use. They are far more widely used than is commonly perceived or acknowledged.
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WingNut60 - I've worked in facilities where an impairment test is given rather than drug or alcohol testing. I think that is a very respectful approach and actually makes more sense. And that's why I included fatigue. The focus should be on fitness for duty. I can remember when drug and alcohol testing first became popular, on the back of massive campaigns from testing suppliers. Commercially drug and alcohol testing is much more lucrative than cognitive testing.
I don't underestimate the extent of alcohol and drug use in Indonesia.
I don't underestimate the extent of alcohol and drug use in Indonesia.
Yes, I agree. I didn't go down that path just to keep the argument simple.
And trying to detect fatigue levels at the start of a flight may not be all that pertinent with respect long haul routes.
I suspect that fatigue detection systems as used in high-end automobiles and mining trucks, for instance, have possible uses in aviation.
Detecting fatigue once in the air may be closing the gate a little late but such systems might provide some valuable insight into the true extent of the problem.
And trying to detect fatigue levels at the start of a flight may not be all that pertinent with respect long haul routes.
I suspect that fatigue detection systems as used in high-end automobiles and mining trucks, for instance, have possible uses in aviation.
Detecting fatigue once in the air may be closing the gate a little late but such systems might provide some valuable insight into the true extent of the problem.
This looks like footage of said Captain's negotiated removal from the flight deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2syfWITeTY
It doesn't look like he's taking the suggestion well.
It doesn't look like he's taking the suggestion well.