Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
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Flight Plan
According to the Colombian Air Safety Secretary, Coronel Freddy Bonilla, Lamia's flight did not followed the Flight Plan. Lamia's flight should have stopped at Pando Airport, located in Cobija, Bolivia. The flight from Santa Cruz de La Sierra to Cobija would have taken 1.5 hours. Estimated time on ground in Pando was around 40 minutes (possibly for refuel), but this stop did not happen. Entering Colombian air space the pilot informed Control he was proceeding direct to Medellin.
It is known that Pando Airport does not operate at night and the takeoff from Santa Cruz de La Sierra was delayed, so this is the reason Lamia's flight did not land there for refueling.
The question is: why they did not land at Bogota International Airport and refueled there?
It is known that Pando Airport does not operate at night and the takeoff from Santa Cruz de La Sierra was delayed, so this is the reason Lamia's flight did not land there for refueling.
The question is: why they did not land at Bogota International Airport and refueled there?
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Re: Airline vs military training & performance
Let us not forget. These (Dover C-5M) were an AF Reserves aircrew, perhaps airline people on deployment.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-aircr-207239/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-aircr-207239/
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Doesn't change the outcome, or the issue of lack of go-juice, but regarding the loss of SA:
The plate posted at thread post #37 shows the hold with northern turn at D0.6 RNG QDM 006.
However the flightradar24 path (usual caveats about this data source) in post #62 shows the path occurring noticeably south of this point. Just visually comparing landmarks/towns on the maps, the position of the VOR shown in the link in post #193 and the flight path, it looks like the turn shown in the path was around 4.5nm south of the VOR.
The plate shows the glideslope intercept as being D4.5 RNG QDR 006.
The plate posted at thread post #37 shows the hold with northern turn at D0.6 RNG QDM 006.
However the flightradar24 path (usual caveats about this data source) in post #62 shows the path occurring noticeably south of this point. Just visually comparing landmarks/towns on the maps, the position of the VOR shown in the link in post #193 and the flight path, it looks like the turn shown in the path was around 4.5nm south of the VOR.
The plate shows the glideslope intercept as being D4.5 RNG QDR 006.
Looks like the FR24 data is from ADS-B (not MLAT) and the location should be from GPS inputs.
Are the holding instructions on the ATC recording that was recently 'leaked'? Hold at the VOR as published seems likely in this scenario.
Confusion between RNG and IMDE DME certainly seems possible with the glide slope intercept at D0.6 RNG/D9.5 IMDE and the runway waypoint [RW01] at D9.5 RNG/D0.6 IMDE.
And with an early glass cockpit in mountainous terrain, any discrepancies in the picture may be taken as a map shift when compared to the wrong raw data.
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Paper Trail, Historic Evidence.
I hope the local NTSB looks into as many trips as possible looking for violations of the rules on previous flights.
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
I hope the local NTSB looks into as many trips as possible looking for violations of the rules on previous flights.
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
A to Destination .... kgs
contingency 5% route fuel.....kgs
taxy/T/O ....kgs (146 usually 200 kgs)
diversion .....kgs
final reserve ....kgs
Add that lot up and you get the absolute minimum fuel required for take off. I suspect that exceeded 9300kgs so some fiddling went on and the result is the ensuing tragedy.
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Misdirected blame
I do hope that the ATCO involved doesn't attract the wrong attention from some misguided, over-enthusiastic football fan, in the same way that Peter Nielsen did in the aftermath of the überlingen midair. There have been several posts in this thread so far, regarding deluded persons aportioing blame on the wrong folk.
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How accurate is the fuel gauge on this plane? The behavior of the crew suggests there was less fuel than the crew thought there was. How likely is a faulty fuel gauge?
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planned fuel stop
Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
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Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
FIRESYSOK:
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Last edited by EcoFox; 2nd Dec 2016 at 17:22.
Whatever the version of the "Pilot Log" was in this cockpit, the crew must've known for a long time that they were 'below the line". Was the Co-Pilot so intimidated by the Captain that he was prepared to die rather than take control or at the very least, put out a "MAYDAY" call?
How can such a situation develop into such a catastrophe? In 2016??
How can such a situation develop into such a catastrophe? In 2016??
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Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
I totally agree. Furthermore, "these countries" is too vague a statement. "These countries" is very large an area where very different realities coexist. The ignorance of some put "these countries" all in the same basket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
I totally agree. Furthermore, "these countries" is too vague a statement. "These countries" is very large an area where very different realities coexist. The ignorance of some put "these countries" all in the same basket.
For what it's worth I'm equally tired of seeing the aircraft involved being labelled in the Spanish and Portuguese language press as British as if, in some way, it were a contributory factor in this accident. No-one says American Boeing or French Airbus. Cultural prejudice?
I suspect references to the aircraft as British are just a bit of shorthand, given that it's the first word of the manufacturers name; an A320 appears in the press as Airbus, not as Airbus Industrie.
Just to be picky, Airbus is not just French.
@WHBM: barry may referring to "the culture of blame" issue in various places. As a point of reference, the midair over Brazil a few years ago. (Discussed in at least one thread on PPRuNe forums).
Barry, I haven't read it that way, nor do I see Latin American reporting suggesting blame. It's just that while the general public has a good idea of where Boeing and Airbus come from, very few have ever heard of Avro.
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Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?