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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 30th Nov 2016, 18:02
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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From the helicopter video footage, it looks like it crashed right next to the Rionegro VOR. Could he of been trying to (steeply) descend to that VOR, thinking it was at the end of the runway (KAL801)?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 18:05
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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ATC not having the plane on radar, apparently not able to provide vectors ... other planes nearby (enough to see its lights passing) (believe someone mentioned they had them on TCAS)... ?

It appears to have escalated in 2 minutes ....

But, has there been any mention of ATC asking other pilots for assistance ?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 18:12
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Now reading that the wreckage is very close to the localizer, as if he flew straight at that.
Possible?
Would explain steep descent and gear down....?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 18:16
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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@meekmok ... too early to answer your question when you look at the available photos. All (except one) photos have been taken from one side of the ridge. Would be necessary to have photos from the other side of the ridge too. These might help to explain what appear to be multiple deep drag marks. I got the impression that you could only explain that when for instance the MLG had been down and the plane came from the other side. Gear down would be surprising based on the distance they had to go. You dont put your gear down early if you are running out of fuel.

An aerial view of the whole site and more photos from the other side of the ridge might explain more.

Addition - #170 of dmba has an good video of a helicopter circling the area, show a wing on top of the high ridge, the earlier seen wreckage below and the VOR on top of the table top mountain opposite. Pity the video is not shown close up.

Last edited by A0283; 30th Nov 2016 at 18:52. Reason: #170 of dmba
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 18:43
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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"Falla eléctrica total, ni combustible" - "Total electrical failure, and (literally "nor") fuel..."

From the Spanish audio in the Portuguese newspaper link.

Last edited by thcrozier; 30th Nov 2016 at 18:55.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 18:59
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by thcrozier View Post
There have been a number of folks asking why a number of clubs and national teams used this operator. Quite simply they were "recommended" by Conmebol, the South American federation.
I note that
... continental governing body of association football in South America and it is one of FIFA's six continental confederations.
Is it too much of a leap to guess that a payment envelope to someone there accompanied this recommendation? That would be consistent with FIFA style behavior, and also consistent with the article about LAMIA from the last page. (While I do take Ms Martin's article with a grain of salt, "having connections" is how a lot of business gets done all over the world). Which regulatory body would have oversight over this air charter company? The Venezuelan or Bolivian? Country of registry is Venezuela.


While I'd expect the Colombians to initiate the Accident Investigation, and I'd expect Venezuelan and Brazillian investigators to have an interest, would Bolivian authorities necessarily be involved or would they not necessarily be?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:02
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.
Yeah, I don't think I would want to put all my eggs in one basket by having my only "diversion" be a different runway. At the very least, I'd want to know that there was somewhere else I could reach in a "worst case" scenario, even if that was somewhere that would normally be off-limits. (Military base, slightly under limits runway length, etc.)
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:08
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Not having ever flown this aircraft type, and it being the terminal phase, might the owner/pilot perhaps have secured two engines during holding (or in the descent into the terminal phase) to save those last few drops of gas since he must have known fuel was getting tight? (No idea how this aircraft does with just two engines, asking out of sheer ignorance). None of the foregoing condones improper fuel planning/reserve requirements ... I am sort of wondering how they got away with this kind of marginal fuel issue on previous flights for the same route?




What informs the question is some ancient "as a last resort" ideas to "single up" a dual engine helicopter at sea when in a fuel emergency ...
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:13
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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The investigation will no doubt reveal when the batteries were last serviced or replaced for this aircraft. You would expect essential or emergency buss power to be maintained for a decent interval after all-engine flameout... and not for the transponder, navaids to 'go dark' so quickly.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:18
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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This is claimed to be ATC audio leading up to the mishap as acquired by Radio W, a Colombian station, possibly the same audio posted earlier by dbma with a little background music:

Los audios de la torre de control previo al accidente del avión del Chapecoense | 20161130

Sounds like the Avianca holding below was indeed AV9356, not AV9256.

Originally Posted by Smott999 View Post
Now reading that the wreckage is very close to the localizer, as if he flew straight at that.
The Wikipedia article has this placemark, the drug lord style helipad with guard towers, or whatever it is [from the lat long, it's apparently the RNG VOR - Airbubba], is indeed in some of the videos of the accident scene:

https://goo.gl/maps/RgPzFzNYzR42

Last edited by Airbubba; 1st Dec 2016 at 16:52.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:20
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by thcrozier View Post
"Falla eléctrica total, ni combustible" - "Total electrical failure, and (literally "nor") fuel..."

From the Spanish audio in the Portuguese newspaper link.
It would make a little more sense if it was "no fuel" first followed by "total electrical failure".

However the exception must be Ansett VH-JJP, Karrath - Perth night flight incident of March 1992 where all four engines rolled back and electrical power was lost comes to mind.

Nevertheless it is almost inconceivable that the aircraft could have been dispatched without sufficient fuel reserves.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:36
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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At 1:16 of Airbubba's link above, you can can clearly hear "Estamos en falla eléctrica total, falla total, y (or 'ni') combustible."

"We are in total electrical failure, total failure, and fuel."
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:38
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Is it too much of a leap to guess that a payment envelope to someone there accompanied this recommendation?
Not much of a leap at all, it would be pretty much standard practice for sports confederations around here.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:39
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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twincommander, good point about the batteries. An old friend worked on the 146 for a time and mentioned that it had a hefty Nickel Cadmium pack, unsurprisingly, given one of its original rough field, no cart roles. The crash aircraft had been in storage for 3? years. One thing that NiCads *hate* is not being used regularly and they lose capacity permanently. For sure it would have deteriorated.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:51
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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I hear "sin combustível".

He's saying they have no fuel.

Last edited by dmba; 30th Nov 2016 at 21:19.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 19:57
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by thcrozier View Post
At 1:16 of Airbubba's link above, you can can clearly hear "Estamos en falla eléctrica total, falla total, y (or 'ni') combustible."

"We are in total electrical failure, total failure, and fuel."
What he said was "Señorita Lamia 933 está en falla total, falla eléctrica total, sin combustible."

"Miss, Lamia 933 is in total failure, total electrical failure, without fuel"
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 20:10
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.
So let's consider a situation where you plan to destination with marginal weather and plan an alternate that is CAVOK.

You get to destination, weather is below limits so you hold until reaching your diversion fuel and divert to your single runway CAVOK alternate arriving with final reserve fuel. However, this now closes for reasons other than weather... what is the difference in that and arriving at a 2 runway airport with final reserve plus a bit in hand (providing the weather at destination is well above limits as stated in my previous post)?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 20:16
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by patowalker View Post
What he said was "Señorita Lamia 933 está en falla total, falla eléctrica total, sin combustible."

"Miss, Lamia 933 is in total failure, total electrical failure, without fuel"
Gracias Pato. Interesting that he was so courteous up to the end. Whispers of Avianca 52?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 20:23
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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We can only imagine how this aircraft was maintained, and whether the NiCads had received their periodic deep discharge/re-charge. Still strange that a conservatively-designed British aircraft would have a black instrument panel so soon after generator power loss.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 20:24
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with your comment intellectually. I believe however, that the likelihood of an unfavourable chain of events at two completely disconnected locations is lower than at two parallel runways.
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