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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 2nd Dec 2016, 16:46
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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Field elevation is listed as 6967' however there is ample high terrain in the vicinity. MSA from 12,100 to 13, 100 depending on sector. A few miles west of FAC is a peak near 10,000, but that isn't where the aircraft hit.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:08
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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The flight was planned to land with 0 kgs fuel.
They landed with 0 kgs fuel.

And that is it.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:17
  #483 (permalink)  
 
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They did not land, they proved the importance of reserve fuel...
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:25
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tu.114 View Post
They did not land, they proved the importance of reserve fuel...
Nothing more useless than runway behind you, sky above you, fuel on the ground.

Trite but true.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:32
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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The flight was planned to land with 0 kgs fuel.
They landed with 0 kgs fuel.

And that is it.

Not quite, the landing with 0 kgs was meant to be at SKRG!
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:34
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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Flight Plan

According to the Colombian Air Safety Secretary, Coronel Freddy Bonilla, Lamia's flight did not followed the Flight Plan. Lamia's flight should have stopped at Pando Airport, located in Cobija, Bolivia. The flight from Santa Cruz de La Sierra to Cobija would have taken 1.5 hours. Estimated time on ground in Pando was around 40 minutes (possibly for refuel), but this stop did not happen. Entering Colombian air space the pilot informed Control he was proceeding direct to Medellin.
It is known that Pando Airport does not operate at night and the takeoff from Santa Cruz de La Sierra was delayed, so this is the reason Lamia's flight did not land there for refueling.
The question is: why they did not land at Bogota International Airport and refueled there?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:35
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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Re: Airline vs military training & performance

Let us not forget. These (Dover C-5M) were an AF Reserves aircrew, perhaps airline people on deployment.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-aircr-207239/
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:37
  #488 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kolossi View Post
Doesn't change the outcome, or the issue of lack of go-juice, but regarding the loss of SA:

The plate posted at thread post #37 shows the hold with northern turn at D0.6 RNG QDM 006.

However the flightradar24 path (usual caveats about this data source) in post #62 shows the path occurring noticeably south of this point. Just visually comparing landmarks/towns on the maps, the position of the VOR shown in the link in post #193 and the flight path, it looks like the turn shown in the path was around 4.5nm south of the VOR.

The plate shows the glideslope intercept as being D4.5 RNG QDR 006.
Not sure I agree with your reading of the approach plate turn point and glide path intercept but it does appear that the FR24 data shows the holding pattern several miles south of the procedure on the approach plate.

Looks like the FR24 data is from ADS-B (not MLAT) and the location should be from GPS inputs.

Are the holding instructions on the ATC recording that was recently 'leaked'? Hold at the VOR as published seems likely in this scenario.

Confusion between RNG and IMDE DME certainly seems possible with the glide slope intercept at D0.6 RNG/D9.5 IMDE and the runway waypoint [RW01] at D9.5 RNG/D0.6 IMDE.

And with an early glass cockpit in mountainous terrain, any discrepancies in the picture may be taken as a map shift when compared to the wrong raw data.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:45
  #489 (permalink)  
 
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Paper Trail, Historic Evidence.

I hope the local NTSB looks into as many trips as possible looking for violations of the rules on previous flights.
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:52
  #490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
I hope the local NTSB looks into as many trips as possible looking for violations of the rules on previous flights.
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
Fuel planning used to go something like this:
A to Destination .... kgs
contingency 5% route fuel.....kgs
taxy/T/O ....kgs (146 usually 200 kgs)
diversion .....kgs
final reserve ....kgs

Add that lot up and you get the absolute minimum fuel required for take off. I suspect that exceeded 9300kgs so some fiddling went on and the result is the ensuing tragedy.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:55
  #491 (permalink)  
 
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Misdirected blame

I do hope that the ATCO involved doesn't attract the wrong attention from some misguided, over-enthusiastic football fan, in the same way that Peter Nielsen did in the aftermath of the überlingen midair. There have been several posts in this thread so far, regarding deluded persons aportioing blame on the wrong folk.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 17:56
  #492 (permalink)  
 
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How accurate is the fuel gauge on this plane? The behavior of the crew suggests there was less fuel than the crew thought there was. How likely is a faulty fuel gauge?
Quite superfluous given the fact they filed with little to no reserve.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:06
  #493 (permalink)  
 
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planned fuel stop

Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:09
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Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
I totally agree. Furthermore, that pejorative "these countries" is too vague a statement. "These countries" is very large an area where very different realities coexist. The ignorance of some put "these countries" all in the same basket.

Last edited by EcoFox; 2nd Dec 2016 at 18:22.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:31
  #495 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever the version of the "Pilot Log" was in this cockpit, the crew must've known for a long time that they were 'below the line". Was the Co-Pilot so intimidated by the Captain that he was prepared to die rather than take control or at the very least, put out a "MAYDAY" call?
How can such a situation develop into such a catastrophe? In 2016??
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:31
  #496 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deadheader View Post
Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
The leaked flight plan does not seem to demonstrate any intention to land at Cobija.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:32
  #497 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
I totally agree. Furthermore, "these countries" is too vague a statement. "These countries" is very large an area where very different realities coexist. The ignorance of some put "these countries" all in the same basket.
Would you prefer it if I said these two countries? As stated previously, I have worked in many countries in South America and I am well aware that there are countries where aviation is performed more safely.

For what it's worth I'm equally tired of seeing the aircraft involved being labelled in the Spanish and Portuguese language press as British as if, in some way, it were a contributory factor in this accident. No-one says American Boeing or French Airbus. Cultural prejudice?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:53
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I suspect references to the aircraft as British are just a bit of shorthand, given that it's the first word of the manufacturers name; an A320 appears in the press as Airbus, not as Airbus Industrie.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 19:02
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Just to be picky, Airbus is not just French.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 19:03
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
I suspect references to the aircraft as British are just a bit of shorthand, given that it's the first word of the manufacturers name; an A320 appears in the press as Airbus, not as Airbus Industrie.
@WHBM: barry may referring to "the culture of blame" issue in various places. As a point of reference, the midair over Brazil a few years ago. (Discussed in at least one thread on PPRuNe forums).
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