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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 2nd Dec 2016, 19:07
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Barry, I haven't read it that way, nor do I see Latin American reporting suggesting blame. It's just that while the general public has a good idea of where Boeing and Airbus come from, very few have ever heard of Avro.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:03
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deadheader View Post
Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?
So many contributors to this thread haven't bothered to read earlier posts, and there is much going around in circles. Re Cobija, the following is from post 15 on this thread: Originally the flight was planned to have a fuel stop at the city of Cobija, on Bolivia's border with Brazil, however the flight's departure was delayed while the crew searched for one of the players' video games.[12] The late departure meant the flight would not arrive at Cobija prior to the airport's closing time. The flight was reportedly supposed to refuel in Bogotá, instead.[11] The distance between Santa Cruz (IATA: VVI) and Medellín (IATA: MDE) airports is 1598 nautical miles (nm).[13] A fuel stop in Cobija (IATA: CIJ) would have broken the flight into two segments: an initial segment of 514nm to Cobija followed by a flight of 1101nm to Medellin, a total of 1615nm.[13] Bogota's airport (IATA: BOG) is 1486nm from Santa Cruz and 116nm from Medellin. ATL-98 gave a list of the crew on board and I asked for the source of this list, which contradicts information earlier in the thread, but have received no reply.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:08
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Looks like the FR24 data is from ADS-B (not MLAT) and the location should be from GPS inputs.
The aircraft didn't have GPS when it flew for CityJet, and I'd be surprised if it had been retrofitted, so the ADS-B position reports will be from an inertial source.

That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:10
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pseudo Pro View Post
Here it is:
It is now clear that the aircraft simply run out of fuel, as others have from time to time. So the issue now must be how could this been allowed to happen.
The answer is to be found in Pseudo Pro`s post No.329 above, not bad for his first posting on PPRuNe. It represents damning evidence, the fact that EET and Endurance was questioned, but nothing was done about it. It is inevitable that some very serious further questions will follow. Such as given the glaring shortcomings of such a FP, why was it not rejected. In accepting the FP what sort of responsibility is shared by the air traffic service provider. Should they have been more insistent, should they have rejected it unless it demonstrated compliance with safety requirements. How can it be denied that the purpose of greater endurance than time en route is for no more than safety.
It would seem somebody was leaning on the dispatcher and he in turn was leaning on the hapless Ms. Monasterio.
It would appear the die was cast on the night of 21st November, seven days before the crash when the clock started ticking at 20:40
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:14
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Fate is the hunter. So, if the story is true of course, this catastrophe began with a player misplacing his video game, from which point the holes in the cheese slowly began to align.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:21
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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Nightstop:
True, unfortunately this thread attracts comments from the Ignorant..some of whom are pilots (maybe).
So true!

You would never believe someone claiming to be an 8,000 hour captain would tell you they believed fuel falls down to the lower wing when holding, now would you??!!!

Presumably the only way they ended up in the LHS was because they were in a hold to the left for too long and they just fell over to that side in the turn...
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:25
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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The sad thing about this incident is that the one positive aspect of the crisis, namely the fact that the chances of a crash landing without loss of life due to the lack of fuel meaning that there wouldn't be an explosion, wasn't taken advantage of. I assume that a landing on relatively flat terrain would have given a pretty good chance of people surviving with there being no chance of a explosion due to the exhaustion of fuel compared to if there had been fuel.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:46
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deadheader
Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
...
The FPL that reached the Colombian authorities showed the flight departing from Cobijas. They only learnt it had departed from Santa Cruz when it was already in Colombian airspace.

http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/jus...oquia/16764039

Last edited by patowalker; 2nd Dec 2016 at 22:46.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 20:59
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So, apparently the spokesman for LAMIA, Mário Pacheco, has come forward blaming the bolivian DGAC government agency for the accident.


"The correct decision is to comply with whats established on the norms and regulations and on the company procedures", said Pacheco. Now, if they deviate, it's not a decision that can be controlled along the flight. The one who has to control this is the flight authority, as it is done on other countries, in which they control the remaining fuel the aircrafts should arrive with. The company is not told to do that. We didn't even had the means, there were to few people working on the airplane.
"

Empresa aérea de tragédia da Chape culpa órgão boliviano por pane seca - 02/12/2016 - Esporte - Folha de S.Paulo
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 21:21
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The aircraft didn't have GPS when it flew for CityJet, and I'd be surprised if it had been retrofitted, so the ADS-B position reports will be from an inertial source.

That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
Are you sure? I thought ADS-B positions had to be satellite based.

From a Boeing article:

Navigation satellites send precise timing information that allows airplanes equipped with global navigation satellite system (GNSS) or GPS receivers to determine their own position and velocity. Airplanes equipped with ADS-B out broadcast precise position and velocity to ground ADS-B receivers and to other airplanes via a digital datalink (1090 megahertz) along with other data, such as the airplane’s flight number and emergency status.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer..._article02.pdf

From an FAA page on ADS-B installations:

An ADS-B Out transmitter alone will not be sufficient to meet the requirements outlined in 14 CFR 91.227. To comply with the requirements for the ADS-B Rule, the aircraft must be equipped with a Version 2 ADS-B Out transmitter and a compatible GPS Position Source.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/installing/

I realize that this wasn't a Boeing flown under FAA rules but I've flown with legacy airliner installations where the ADS-B and TCAS had GPS but the FMS did not.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 21:32
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Are you sure?
Yes.

I thought ADS-B positions had to be satellite based.
Most aircraft are, some aren't. The latter include some older Boeings and Airbuses, too.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 21:36
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Patowalker
The FPL that reached the Colombian authorities showed the flight departing from Cobijas. They only learnt it had departed from Santa Cruz when it was already in Colombian airspace.
So just to make it clear, the flight was planned to take 4:22 from Cobijas to Medellín, using up all its endurance? This smells a bit like they were lucky to even make it to the holding, seeing that they departed way further south than that.

Could somebody with access to an ARJ flight planning system run these two flights through it so we get fuel burn and EET for both? This might be interesting.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 21:46
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Strictly speaking ADS-B does not require GPS / GNSS. But practically speaking, a WAAS GPS system is the "easiest" way to comply with ADS-B's performance requirements.

Many ADS-B systems are sold / installed with integrated GPS receivers. So it is not necessary to retrofit the aircraft's legacy NAV system just to have ADS-B Out.

The two systems could remain independent of each other: one system for navigation, one system for position reporting. (And there could be significant deltas between them).

That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
1nm error is well outside the limits specified for ADS-B. The position limit is 0.05nm with an integrity bubble of 0.2nm. These requirements can be tough to meet using legacy inertial or RNAV sources, which is why most ADS-B retrofits will include GPS instead.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 21:52
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel flow in turns

You would never believe someone claiming to be an 8,000 hour captain would tell you they believed fuel falls down to the lower wing when holding, now would you??!!!
Actually, due to various quantum effects, nonlinear compressibility of air, and wormholes in space/time, every time you make an uncoordinated turn, a little fuel from the upper tank ends up in Bob Hoover's coffee. Always used to piss him off when he got a mouthful of Jet A.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 21:55
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
1nm error is well outside the limits specified for ADS-B. The position limit is 0.05nm with an integrity bubble of 0.2nm. These requirements can be tough to meet using legacy inertial or RNAV sources, which is why most ADS-B retrofits will include GPS instead.
Yep, I don't think that ADS-B data was inertial.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:08
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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So just to make it clear, the flight was planned to take 4:22 from Cobijas to Medellín, using up all its endurance? This smells a bit like they were lucky to even make it to the holding, seeing that they departed way further south than that.
What makes you think both FPLs showed the same EET?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:11
  #517 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AndyJS View Post
The sad thing about this incident is that the one positive aspect of the crisis, namely the fact that the chances of a crash landing without loss of life due to the lack of fuel meaning that there wouldn't be an explosion, wasn't taken advantage of. I assume that a landing on relatively flat terrain would have given a pretty good chance of people surviving with there being no chance of a explosion due to the exhaustion of fuel compared to if there had been fuel.
In aircraft crashes it is not usually the "explosion of fuel" that kills people.
😫
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:21
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post
1nm error is well outside the limits specified for ADS-B. The position limit is 0.05nm with an integrity bubble of 0.2nm. These requirements can be tough to meet using legacy inertial or RNAV sources, which is why most ADS-B retrofits will include GPS instead.
Don't confuse ADS-B with specific implementations of it (e.g. NextGen, Hudson Bay, etc).

ADS-B doesn't have specific limits - the spec accommodates a wide range of accuracy and integrity levels, which is why every position transmission includes a parameter (NUCp) that identifies the level that applies to the data.

Specific ADS-B implementations can require a minimum NUCp - the Hudson Bay ADS-B-mandatory airspace, for example, requires a minumum NUCp of 5, for example, so inertial-based ADS-B won't normally meet that criterion (but it still satisfies the ADS-B spec).

Thr LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:30
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DRUK

"The LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules."

Agreed re ADS-B -- but it also would not likely be allowed to fly in the USA (or many other countries) for a whole host of other reasons too...
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 22:36
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In addition to the bogus flight plan would there be many other SOPs skipped or ignored? Wondering if this a/c had a CVR capacity long enough to record the pre-flight briefing, cross checks, fuel warnings, QRH call outs. There is far more here than fail to plan, plan to fail.
Every pilot has experienced delays due to wx or traffic or whatever - to go without necessary fuel is Russian roulette.
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