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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:35
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
Maybe not "many" professionals do it, but some do. A flight from Rio to Lisbon by a major airline landed in Lisbon with zero fuel and had to be towed out of the runway.
Apparently, in the late 90's MH pilots were pressured to carry as little fuel as possible to save money. I presume this no longer happens with the majors. Anyone has any stats on how common is it for pilots to declare low fuel?

In this case, had they not been put on hold, they would have landed and no one would know any better.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:36
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:44
  #423 (permalink)  
 
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Apparently, in the late 90's MH pilots were pressured to carry as little fuel as possible to save money. I presume this no longer happens with the majors.
Well it is certainly something the accountants are still aware of.

"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...

That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:44
  #424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OscarRomeoDelta View Post
That was a very ignorant comment SV. Are you claiming that RYR dispatches flights illegally and without proper safe amounts of fuel?
Unfortunately, it appears that it is what happened, judging from what is written here: Por 5 observaciones no debía volar | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:02
  #425 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
I am proposing this crowd funding to go entirely to the controller that dealt so very professionally with 2 emergencies at Medellin one of which, through negligence, resulted in the deaths of many people.
I have mentioned this twice before, but here it goes again: The Viva Colombia aircraft did not declare an emergency, it simply diverted to Medellin for a precautionary landing due to a fuel warning light coming on.

"El avión de VivaColombia en ningún momento se declaró en emergencia" | EL UNIVERSAL - Cartagena
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:16
  #426 (permalink)  
 
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The most surprising thing about this thread is the lack of understanding of Latin culture. Larger operators, sure, they're mostly legit...but this one-horse show with a pretty private-pilot girl filmed in the left seat prior to departure wearing three stripes; pilot/owner selfies all over social media throwing up gang signs, etc.....this disaster should come as no surprise whatsoever. And I mean it was probably long overdue.
The pretty girl was a mother of two small boys, with an FAA CPL gained at American Flyers, Pompano, Fl. She was an observer on the flight, according to her father.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:40
  #427 (permalink)  
 
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BEA report into RJ85 Low Fuel Incident

An insight into the RJ85's fuel system & management at low quantity:

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/ei-...w100617.en.pdf

Last edited by Nightstop; 2nd Dec 2016 at 09:42. Reason: Spelling
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:43
  #428 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by OscarRomeoDelta View Post
That was a very ignorant comment SV. Are you claiming that RYR dispatches flights illegally and without proper safe amounts of fuel?
No, he isn't. Are you aware of the incident to which he refers?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:55
  #429 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone who compares this tragedy to the Ryanair fuel incident shows a severe lack of knowledge regarding fuel planning.

All Ryanair aircraft carried extra fuel that night (above the minimum legal reserves), Lamia appears to have carried NO reserve whatsoever. Due to extended holding and an emergency from another South American airliner who really was running out of fuel (!), two of the Ryanairs ended up using 2 minutes of their 30 minute reserve. There are lessons to be learned about the Ryanair situation, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this Lamia tragedy where it seems that there were no reserves planned at all.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:57
  #430 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JumpJumpJump View Post
Without doubt, the global aviation community is standing on the side of the contoller... I have just set up a Go Fund Me on her behalf, the limk can be found here https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash Please, Help me with the wording, if I can express the sentiment better, I will. Thank you all
Yesterday, dmba posted a link to a document written by the controller. It gives her name.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:10
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PENKO View Post
Everyone who compares this tragedy to the Ryanair fuel incident shows a severe lack of knowledge regarding fuel planning.
The confusion isn't helped by soundbites like this from their CEO:

"Fuel emergencies, declared when pilots come close to having 30 minutes of fuel left on landing, 'while rare, are not unusual' in the airline industry"

M O'L August 2013.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...safety-culture
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:16
  #432 (permalink)  
 
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LaMia Airline's general manager, Gustavo Vargas Gamboa, and the head of Bolivia's Civil Aviation National Registry are father and son.
Now that does explain a lot.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:27
  #433 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alemaobaiano View Post
Now that does explain a lot.
Does it? Registry is just a book-keeping function. Licencing, Certification, Operations, these could be relevant, though not necessarily so.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:30
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Romeo_Fox View Post
It seems like declaring an emergency could have saved the day. I'm looking into exactly this topic for quite a while now and it seems there is very little knowledge about why pilots seem so reluctant to declare.

Although in this case there are quite a few "obvious" reasons why the owner/pilot did not declare, does anyone know of some proper research / reports why (also GA) pilots do not declare, when they clearly need a maximum of help.
Controllers find it hard to say the words "avoiding action" because we don't say it very often and it is tantamount to admitting it's all gone wrong. This is especially the case if it is your own mistake and not say a level bust. Sometimes controllers think they have said those words, and are surprised when hearing the replay that they haven't and have said immediately instead. I presume the same would apply to pilots who don't want to admit it's all gone wrong or think that saying you are low on fuel is the same as a pan or mayday.
In the uk we do practice for emergencies in the simulator and the people running them try to engineer situations which require controllers to say "avoiding action" so it isn't a strange thing to have to say.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:31
  #435 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Well it is certainly something the accountants are still aware of.

"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...

That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.
Am I the only one on these boards who considers your conclusion, which I have highlighted, to be at odds with the evidence which you yourself provide "in spades"?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:36
  #436 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by svhar View Post
This is what happens when everyone flies with minimum fuel. I recall an incident a few years ago when some RYR aircraft had to divert from Madrid to Valencia and Alicante, declaring emergency because of low fuel.
No, it's not. THIS is what happens when people fly around with significantly less than minimum fuel. Those RYR aircraft had sufficient fuel to divert and land safely. This aircraft rather tragically, did not.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 10:42
  #437 (permalink)  
 
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maire paire:

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:

1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.

I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 11:00
  #438 (permalink)  
 
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Military background contributing factor?

I understand that the PICwas ex-military. Isn't it possible that pilots with such a background, due to the nature of their flight training which involves risky manoevers and missions may be willing to take higher risks than their civilian counterparts? Are there any statistical figures regarding accidents involving retired military pilots?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 11:02
  #439 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, despite better flight planning tools and resources this still happens occasionally.
I remember in the late 90's I was in Recife awaiting a flight to Lisbon. The airplane, an A310-300 of a national carrier, arrive from Fortaleza partially loaded to pick up the Recife pax. Once boarded we were told we were to expect a delay awaiting fuel. I sat at the back of business on the right side almost over the top of the refuel panel. Never saw anyone. After 45 minutes we started up and took off. Guess what, we were greeted with blue lights at the threshold on landing at Lisbon and had to be towed to the gate. Did we take gas in Recife....probably not.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 11:48
  #440 (permalink)  
 
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As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:

1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.

I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
So lack of regulation then?
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