Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
Only half a speed-brake
Smot999: from what I read here over the 5 or so last pages, she seems be an ARO officer. Now, in my country the ATC staff used to be referred to as "dispatchers" for generations until about 20 yrs ago. Maybe this is the source of confusion?
As far as the authority of ARO not to file formally valid, yet logically corrupt FPL ... I do not know, and would be interested too. Somehow I feel chances are slim, especially as in many countries over the world these are submitted and validated online.
As far as the authority of ARO not to file formally valid, yet logically corrupt FPL ... I do not know, and would be interested too. Somehow I feel chances are slim, especially as in many countries over the world these are submitted and validated online.
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Two FO's
guys it was her first flight on the RJ she was probably on the Jump seat observing the other first officer in the RH seat and the Captain in the LH seat as PF .
I believe I read that the FO "crew" was a part time model, daughter of someone important, a private pilot, and NOT rated on type. Sisy Arias IIRC.
Hope she wasn't in the LHS.
But with the way this is shaping up, no surprise if she was.
I believe I read that the FO "crew" was a part time model, daughter of someone important, a private pilot, and NOT rated on type. Sisy Arias IIRC.
Hope she wasn't in the LHS.
But with the way this is shaping up, no surprise if she was.
Last edited by icemanalgeria; 1st Dec 2016 at 19:41. Reason: Typo
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The stamp with signature on the filed flight plan says "ARO AIS AASANA" at Viru Viru International. That stamp is placed under the header Additional and not under the header Accepted.
So the immediate questions are:
a. what is the authority of ARO AIS AASANA,
b. could the person placing the stamp withhold the stamp,
c. have there been discussions like ms Celia Monasterio had, and what was the outcome of those,
Question a. should be easy. Point b. requiring a bit more digging. And point c. requiring an indepth investigation.
In an in-depth investigation you would also look at the placement of the stamp. Is it a valid form (it is an FAA form by the way) with that offside placement.
Have to note that it is still very early in the investigation and that this issue is only a small piece in a very large puzzle. The safety investigation will certainly not go beyond factfinding at this stage. But what officials have said till now certainly points to something like a workgroup or sub WG focussing on the 'administrative side'.
So the immediate questions are:
a. what is the authority of ARO AIS AASANA,
b. could the person placing the stamp withhold the stamp,
c. have there been discussions like ms Celia Monasterio had, and what was the outcome of those,
Question a. should be easy. Point b. requiring a bit more digging. And point c. requiring an indepth investigation.
In an in-depth investigation you would also look at the placement of the stamp. Is it a valid form (it is an FAA form by the way) with that offside placement.
Have to note that it is still very early in the investigation and that this issue is only a small piece in a very large puzzle. The safety investigation will certainly not go beyond factfinding at this stage. But what officials have said till now certainly points to something like a workgroup or sub WG focussing on the 'administrative side'.
Last edited by A0283; 1st Dec 2016 at 20:10.
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Regarding vocabulary, I think when Celia (apparently a government or at least airport employee) uses the word "dispatcher" she is referring to whomever at the company is filing the flight plan. That person essentially discarded her observations, told her to calm down, said "this is the way we do it, we've done it before, I'll take care of it, it will be shorter than 4:22, so shut up."
What her legal authority was is unclear, but she ultimately gave in to the badgering of someone who for some reason she perceived as having superior authority.
What her legal authority was is unclear, but she ultimately gave in to the badgering of someone who for some reason she perceived as having superior authority.
Smott, I'm guessing that you know it takes a long time for the agreements that countries sign up to - e.g. in ICAO terms - to filter down to the rank and file. So, yes, you can go crash wherever you like, with dispatchers' reluctant blessing.
Claudia may have had legal authority to prevent the LaMia flight departure but, in practice, not. The dichotomy will probably play out over the next few days and I'm sure it will rock the boat in Bolivia; seems heads rolling in DGAC already.
Claudia may have had legal authority to prevent the LaMia flight departure but, in practice, not. The dichotomy will probably play out over the next few days and I'm sure it will rock the boat in Bolivia; seems heads rolling in DGAC already.
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@Smott
the ARO can refuse acceptance of FPL - if they have a reason, sometimes other than strictly aeronautical - which means no clearance and ultimately no flight, iaw Annex 11 and relevant State AIP / rules.
in Europe IFPS (Eurocontrol) regularly rejects submitted FPLs for various reasons.
think of ARO as ATC first line of...defense
the ARO can refuse acceptance of FPL - if they have a reason, sometimes other than strictly aeronautical - which means no clearance and ultimately no flight, iaw Annex 11 and relevant State AIP / rules.
in Europe IFPS (Eurocontrol) regularly rejects submitted FPLs for various reasons.
think of ARO as ATC first line of...defense
Last edited by vmandr; 1st Dec 2016 at 21:15. Reason: IFPS iso CFMU
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Ah, so Sisy wasn't actually the FO, they were just hamming it up for the photo ops with the footballers, right? That sounds more logical.
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It appears also that commerical aviation rights granting 'freedom of the air' between Bolivia and Brazil may have been a causal factor behind this avoidable tragedy and the pushing of max. air frame range. Brazil and Bolivia do not have agreement in place that permits 6th freedom rights to Bolivian operators.
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172, so the guy who browbeat Celia about how totally safe his plan was, then refused to sign his name?
No dummy, he.
I hope they find that guy.
This is needless loss of 71 lives in a criminal act IMO.
No dummy, he.
I hope they find that guy.
This is needless loss of 71 lives in a criminal act IMO.
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This flight plan has not been accepted at Santa Cruz. The acceptance box is empty. The ARO has stamped the Additional Information box, which I suspect gets her off the hook and indicates the plan is noted but not accepted.
But still they went, like the charge of the light brigade into the valley of death, lions led by donkeys.
I wonder if football pressure was at work, the team wanting an early bed in Medellin before the Wednesday match. Keep going Captain , we will be ok with Fergie time for this leg.
But still they went, like the charge of the light brigade into the valley of death, lions led by donkeys.
I wonder if football pressure was at work, the team wanting an early bed in Medellin before the Wednesday match. Keep going Captain , we will be ok with Fergie time for this leg.
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It will be telling in the investigation if Celia ran this up the command chain (whatever that may be) after being snubbed twice by the now departed Mr. Quispe. The likelihood is that this was par for the course for this outfit and that yes, 9 out of 10, they would make it there 'tranquilo'.
Very sad that this women will have to live with this for the rest of her life.
I am also very curious how many other individuals came across the FPL during the course of the flight? The likelihood that "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" mentality that is oh so common to south america is again at the forefront of administrative shirking in this catastrophe.
Very sad that this women will have to live with this for the rest of her life.
I am also very curious how many other individuals came across the FPL during the course of the flight? The likelihood that "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" mentality that is oh so common to south america is again at the forefront of administrative shirking in this catastrophe.
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@enola-gay
if tower cleared them, means ARO had sent the AFTN message to tower and the downline stations informing all of the flight, meaning the flight plan was accepted despite
stamp & signature in wrong box ( provided the fpl we see is original/latest and unaltered).
if tower cleared them, means ARO had sent the AFTN message to tower and the downline stations informing all of the flight, meaning the flight plan was accepted despite
stamp & signature in wrong box ( provided the fpl we see is original/latest and unaltered).
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Just read the 2 leaked papers . ( I can read Spanish) The first one is a mail from the ARO to her superiors about 4 observations regarding taking off with an incorrectly filed PLN. If 2 items are without consequences ( e.g no SID and name Dispatcher missing ), but 2 are : Autonomy and ALT AD.
The conversation is interesting as it show kind of bullying of the ARO by the dispatcher ( whose full name is on the first line of the memo BTW)
Good for her that she did this. She probably can sleep a bit better as a result but must be quite shaken as well. Another person I think that would need help.
The second looks like the actual PLN, signed by a license number and stamped as received , and transmitted . As I see it , the stamp is there to confirm it has been received ( date and time ) and will be transmitted further. nothing more.
ARO refusing a PLN is very common in Europe ( and I guess the USA) and definitively done by the IFPS in Europe. But this is not the case everywhere in the world, and in this case, if the other reports are correct , it would seem the airline belonged to the father of the CAA Director , so most probably the employer of the ARO . I also do not think there are many Bolivian airlines in the Country. So Refusing this particular PLN is most probably a bit more difficult there.
The conversation is interesting as it show kind of bullying of the ARO by the dispatcher ( whose full name is on the first line of the memo BTW)
Good for her that she did this. She probably can sleep a bit better as a result but must be quite shaken as well. Another person I think that would need help.
The second looks like the actual PLN, signed by a license number and stamped as received , and transmitted . As I see it , the stamp is there to confirm it has been received ( date and time ) and will be transmitted further. nothing more.
ARO refusing a PLN is very common in Europe ( and I guess the USA) and definitively done by the IFPS in Europe. But this is not the case everywhere in the world, and in this case, if the other reports are correct , it would seem the airline belonged to the father of the CAA Director , so most probably the employer of the ARO . I also do not think there are many Bolivian airlines in the Country. So Refusing this particular PLN is most probably a bit more difficult there.
Last edited by ATC Watcher; 1st Dec 2016 at 20:53. Reason: clarification
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From the information in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-gspJzK6uM
it appears that they could have landed in Medellin with ~10 min of fuel to spare IF they followed a direct approach without any delays or hold (no traffic, no weather). It was because they were placed on a holding pattern due to Viva Colombia FC8170 emergency what sealed their fate.
They probably underestimated the gravity of the situation and thought they had a few more minutes left when they initially contacted Medellin ATC. If only they had declared fuel emergency as soon as they initiated descent instead of asking for priority AFTER being placed on a hold pattern the outcome could have been totally different.
I can understand their logic of not wanting to land to refuel in Bogota. They probably believed they had a little bit more fuel left, and they were expecting light to no traffic, what would allow them direct approach to Medellin. They knew they would be landing with with very little fuel (~15-20 min) left, but in their minds this wasn't necessarily a "red hot" emergency. They were under time pressure (to allow the players to have a good night sleep before an important match) and the Captain / Owner wasn't eager to spend money on landing fees in Bogota (in the end it was his personal money at play).
Very unprofessional (especially for a commercial crew), but I bet many pilots have landed with less than 10 min of fuel left without declaring an emergency (and kept it secret to themselves).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-gspJzK6uM
it appears that they could have landed in Medellin with ~10 min of fuel to spare IF they followed a direct approach without any delays or hold (no traffic, no weather). It was because they were placed on a holding pattern due to Viva Colombia FC8170 emergency what sealed their fate.
They probably underestimated the gravity of the situation and thought they had a few more minutes left when they initially contacted Medellin ATC. If only they had declared fuel emergency as soon as they initiated descent instead of asking for priority AFTER being placed on a hold pattern the outcome could have been totally different.
I can understand their logic of not wanting to land to refuel in Bogota. They probably believed they had a little bit more fuel left, and they were expecting light to no traffic, what would allow them direct approach to Medellin. They knew they would be landing with with very little fuel (~15-20 min) left, but in their minds this wasn't necessarily a "red hot" emergency. They were under time pressure (to allow the players to have a good night sleep before an important match) and the Captain / Owner wasn't eager to spend money on landing fees in Bogota (in the end it was his personal money at play).
Very unprofessional (especially for a commercial crew), but I bet many pilots have landed with less than 10 min of fuel left without declaring an emergency (and kept it secret to themselves).
It would be good for a competent aviation journalist to do a bit of research about Lamia. In Europe, both BAe and Cityjet, source of the aircraft, must have had some dealings with them.
They seem to have started up in Venezuela, and about 4 years ago bought four BAe RJ85 which were surplus at Cityjet in Ireland. These progressively worked through a range of registrations, first offshore in Aruba, then in Venezuela, and finally in Bolivia. Reported that the accident aircraft was physically owned by the Venezuelan company and leased to the Bolivian one, same name but some different shareholding. Attempts at scheduled operation had fallen through, and they dropped back to charter only. There aren't many RJ operators worldwide, but there is another in Bolivia called Ecojet who have operated for the last few years as well.
Apparently of Lamia's fleet of four only the accident aircraft had remained in service, the others being scattered withdrawn around South America, so their financials cannot have been great. It would be interesting to learn just how they managed to pick up such a charter - there are reports they had flown other soccer clubs, again not ones from their home country. Their chief pilot and part-owner is reported in command of the accident flight. I presume nothing is flying under their name now.
They seem to have started up in Venezuela, and about 4 years ago bought four BAe RJ85 which were surplus at Cityjet in Ireland. These progressively worked through a range of registrations, first offshore in Aruba, then in Venezuela, and finally in Bolivia. Reported that the accident aircraft was physically owned by the Venezuelan company and leased to the Bolivian one, same name but some different shareholding. Attempts at scheduled operation had fallen through, and they dropped back to charter only. There aren't many RJ operators worldwide, but there is another in Bolivia called Ecojet who have operated for the last few years as well.
Apparently of Lamia's fleet of four only the accident aircraft had remained in service, the others being scattered withdrawn around South America, so their financials cannot have been great. It would be interesting to learn just how they managed to pick up such a charter - there are reports they had flown other soccer clubs, again not ones from their home country. Their chief pilot and part-owner is reported in command of the accident flight. I presume nothing is flying under their name now.
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Originally Posted by Smott999
I hope they find that guy.
Boliviana sobrevive a tragedia del accidente aéreo de Chapecoense | ATB Digital
Entre los tripulantes bolivianos a cargo de la aeronave, fallecieron ocho personas: Miguel Quiroga, Ovar Goyti, Sisy Arias (hija del periodista Jorge Arias), Alex Quispe, Gustavo Encina, Erwin Tumiri, Ángel Lugo y el asistente de vuelo Romel Vacaflores.