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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 1st Dec 2016, 17:42
  #321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: France
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In the first paper, Celia is reporting 5 comments about the flight plan and her conversation with AEREA Lamia dispatcher, raising her concerns about the alt destination and their F/plan to fly right at the limit of the range.
The dispatcher is telling her that they will manage it.
So how come we are told that the AL management say that they thought there was a planned fuel stop?

(I speak reasonable Portuguese and can read Spanish, but will leave the full translation to some one with better nuances)
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 17:43
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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I'm still feeling that given the steep descent plus wheels down, he thought the RNG VOR was in fact the runway beacon.
Even tho ATC informed him he was 9 miles out.
He perhaps had DME set to RNG and so thought he was nearly on the runway...?
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:14
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by T28B View Post
Procede: Do you mean just before the flight? The way your put that, it can be construed as though the she was being interview just before the plane went down and crashed. (I don't think you meant it that way).
Yes, this was a tv interview just before they left, including interviews with the coaching staff of the football team, with the crew etc.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:22
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Last sentence of Section 3, where a somewhat heated discussion of endurance and flight time parity is taking place:

Celia: "Then I didn't insist any more, upon seeing the obstinacy (stubborn attitude) of the dispatcher."
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:24
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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Here it is:

Subject: Notification about received FPL LMI2399

I inform that in date 2111162010 [note: ddmmyyhhmm] Mr. Alex Quispe (+), Lamia's Dispatcher, presented himself to the OF. ARO-AIS/SLVR presenting the Flight Plan FM/SLVR TO/SKRG (Rio Negro, Colombia).

I stated 5 observations about the FPL (NO ERRORS IN THE FLIGHT PLAN):

1. SID - Not provided.
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: Please, Mrs., add NOMAJ DCT VIR. (Didn't do that, asking to request at TWR).

2. ALTN AD: I pointed several times and asked to add another one (there's just one ALTN, SKBO)
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: This is what the Captain told me. Please leave it as is, Mrs. Celia

3. AUTONOMY: (EET same as Autonomy)
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: This is it, this is what they and Captain told me.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: This is not right, please check it throughly and update the flight plan.
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: These are the data, Mrs. Celia, these are the data that I was given for the FPL.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: But the EET and Autonomy are just the same, you have mistaken it and you don't want to change it
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: No, Mrs. Celia. This is the autonomy that I was given, it is good enough.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: No, because this the same as EET.
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: Yes, this is it as we filed, we will fly in less time, don't worry. This is it. Keep calm, this is fine. Leave it the way it is.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: No longer insists, given the dispatcher's obstinacy.

4 - Dispatcher's name (just the signature)
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: Ah, yea, but here is my licence number.

- After these and other observations, the dispatcher was gone, pointing that, yes; there were due changes in the FPL, specially these 2 OBS (ALTN and AUT) and bring me another FPL when coming back to check the AIS MET and NOTAM information
- He was back after aprox. 30 minutes collecting the flight information (MET-ARO AIS) and sustained that everything was just the same and there was no other changes in the FPL.
Given that answer, I expressed my discomfort stating that several times the dispatchers does not takes our observations seriously.

NOTE:
FYI, there were at work:
MET Circuitry: Mr. Javier Gunter
COM Circuitry: Mr. Roger Roca.

Celia Castedo Monasterio
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:27
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Is it just me. If I was that low on fuel and I had declared an emergency, I would do what was necessary. I would not care about separation, clearances, holding whatever. Dump it in the grass next to the previous emergency. Nearest to the equipment.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:29
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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The El Deber article ("Una tragedia que se pudo evitar", https://social.shorthand.com/diarioe...se-pudo-evitar) contains the Flight Plan and a statement by ViroViro dispatcher Celia Castedo Monasterio. If Celia's account is accurate what comes across is a cavalier attitude on the part of Bolivian flight crews generally to the authority of despatch. Celia stated her concerns and instructed LaMia crew member Quispe to come back with a corrected flight plan when he returned in half an hour to get the met report. When he did return there was no change; Celia's report says:
A esta respuesta mostré mi molestia diciéndole referente a que muchas veces los despachadores no toman en serio nuestras observaciones
"To this reply I showed my annoyance, referring to the frequency with which crew filing flight plans fail to take our observations seriously."
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:29
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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That memo from Celia (if true and verified) is absolutely the silver bullet in this.

I'm too lazy to translate verbatim, but she makes very clear that route time was equal to endurance. They go back and forth, he says "no worries, we'll make it just fine".

Celia's poor life is ruined....
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:38
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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The controller, who is also a journalist, has been threatened by idiots, who seem to think she is in some way responsible for the accident.

Here is my free translation of the sad part of her letter.

"Unfortunately, my journalist colleagues have caused ignorant people, unfamiliar with this occupation and above all ignorant of the procedures, to threaten my physical integrity and personal tranquility, so I have been looking at ways to solve this situation and hope to discuss the matter with the directors of our organisation."

The first part of the letter to her ATC colleagues is thanking them for their support and solidarity, and explaning how she is convinced she did everything humanly possible to save the lives of those on the aircraft.

La desgarradora carta de la controladora aérea de la tragedia
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:39
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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So are people likely going to jail? Or charged w homicide?
Not to get hyperbolic, I don't know the S American culture in re aviation.

But this seems absolutely criminal.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:48
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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And best wishes to the ATC controller, clearly an exemplary professional in this tragic circumstance.
Here's hoping she has the strength and support to get through this OK.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:49
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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More importantly the airline must be thoroughly investigated. Presumably they should be grounded and all of their records should be seized as soon as possible to prevent tampering.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:50
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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bloom:

Is it just me. If I was that low on fuel and I had declared an emergency, I would do what was necessary. I would not care about separation, clearances, holding whatever. Dump it in the grass next to the previous emergency. Nearest to the equipment.
Exactly!
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:52
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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From what I remember of flying the 146-200 many years ago, with a TOB of 77, you would not be wanting to fly much more than 2 1/2 hours plus reserves to remain comfortable. The RJ85 was not that much more efficient, 4:22 endurance sounds very, very optimistic to me unless this aircraft had a singnificant increase on the 146-200's MTOW of 42T.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 18:58
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Not a pilot, so my Spanish is better than the details, but the conversation from the transcript is noticeably heated, with Celia pointedly rejecting the flight plan ("consulte bien y cambie el plan de vuelo", approximately "think twice and change the flight plan" and washing her hands of it and insulting the dispatcher ("ya no insiste mas al ver la terquedad del despachador", "terco" exactly "stubborn" as one might say of a donkey). She went on in part 4 to criticize the dispatcher for promising to change the flight plan and then a half-hour later coming back stating they would make no changes ("me indico que se mantenia todo igual"), finally stating this answer demonstrates her complaint that dispatchers "many times" do not take their advice seriously.

Whether this amounts to culpable recklessness or dereliction of duty on anybody's part is for higher-ups to say. To me, it certainly seems to do just that.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 19:01
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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More importantly the airline must be thoroughly investigated. Presumably they should be grounded and all of their records should be seized as soon as possible to prevent tampering.
Well they've effectively done that as this was the only plane they had that was airworthy, and the captain was apparently the company owner.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 19:03
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you alloy data I have found says 42,185 kg so not much change
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 19:10
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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strange flight plan ( strangely accepted by atc there )

EET 04:22 (takeoff to landing)
ENDURANCE 04:22

i think, if endurance is(was) correct and match eet, it means NIL RESERVE FUEL
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 19:26
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alloy View Post
The RJ85 was not that much more efficient, 4:22 endurance sounds very, very optimistic to me unless this aircraft had a singnificant increase on the 146-200's MTOW of 42T.
The RJ85's certificated MTOW is (depending on mod state) 3,500-4,000 lb higher than the 146-200.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 20:09
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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Hold at FL210, MSA on all sectors above 12,000 feet and rwy elevation at 7000 feet fuel exhaustion would have confronted the crew with the attendant problems of loss of pressurisation. Could the the earlier speculative posts of confusion with the VOR for the rwy relate to onset of hypoxia, depending of course on exactly when the engines flamed out. Looking at the timing given by the ATC recording, it is conceivable they may have remained above 18,000 feet for the greater part of the final six minutes.
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