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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 1st Jun 2016, 14:52
  #921 (permalink)  
 
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Life of Leisure...

La Depeche by any chance


"...Le signal détecté par la Marine française est bien celui d'une des boîtes noires du vol Paris-Le Caire d'EgyptAir qui s'est abîmé le 19 mai en Méditerranée, a annoncé mardi le Bureau d'enquêtes et d'analyses français (BEA).

"Le signal d'une balise d'un enregistreur de vol a pu être détecté par les équipements de la société Alseamar déployés sur le bâtiment de la Marine Nationale Laplace", a indiqué dans un communiqué le directeur du BEA Rémi Jouty, après l'annonce par les autorités égyptiennes de la détection par un navire de la Marine française de "signaux émanant probablement" d'une des deux boîtes noires de l'A320 d'EgyptAir.

And no, I'm not going to do an a full "in English, please", other than emphasise that the BEA boss is saying the signals probably come from from one of the two black boxes...
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 15:09
  #922 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf 50

Yes, it is the solution in search of problem on hand. A0283 explained it well.

Even after 14 days if SAR teams are not sure where it went down, how long it is going to take to recover FDR/CVR. There is near zero possibility of recovering human remains.

Arial search happens at 150+ knots, underwater search moves at 3 knots. DFIRS eliminates the FDR/CVR search part, gives exact coordinates where it went down, so SAR teams can work on recovery and aviation accident investigators can start their investigation immediately.

BDS P8-A (a B737 platform) sports DFIRS 2100, so why can't BCA B737/B787 or B777.

Not planning to discuss this technology on this thread, but want to share there are proven solutions for this problem.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 15:29
  #923 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy,

Yes, La Depeche. You are right in translating "a pu être détecté" as "may have been detected", so not definite, but intereting that he has issued a statement. The newspaper seems to be more definite in its interpretation.

Edited to add: BBC also now reporting the BEA statement.

Last edited by Life of Leisure; 1st Jun 2016 at 15:45.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 16:14
  #924 (permalink)  
 
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my reading is "people have been able to detect the signal"
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 16:39
  #925 (permalink)  
 
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pax, you are right, in French we do not have the distinction can/may.
Thus the sentence is quite affirmative.

wiggy, translating La Dépèche : "The signal is definetely coming from one of the recorders..."
in the next sentence the BEA boss says the signal has been detected (like pax has emphazised), recalling that Egypt had, before that, announced it was probable.
Thats is a logical chronology : first probable (source Aegypt), then certain (source BEA)

BTW French people often make mistakes just because they use "can" for "may" or conversely !
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 17:42
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Originally Posted by takata View Post
@ portmanteau
Well it looks like they were able to derivate a very close position of the crash site from 5 satelite pick up of two short beacon bursts at 00:36z. A previous report mentioned that those data were treated by Airbus (or Space Agency in Toulouse) for Egyptian authorities. The Gardian wrote something that is looking accurate yesterday:
Distress signal from EgyptAir flight 804 confirmed by authorities in Cairo and US | World news | The Guardian
That would have to be 5 ground stations. The satellites were shut down in 2009...
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:10
  #927 (permalink)  

 
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And thanks to Alain67 for explaining that 'nicety' of translation from French to English!

So, back on track - can we now assume that the BEA is saying that a signal has been identified as definitely from a flight recorder?
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:15
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I think it would be fairer to say that a signal has ben received, the characteristics of which are typical of a flight recorder, and the probability of picking up a false signal in this area is small so it is very probably a flight recorder..
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:19
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Originally Posted by LASJayhawk View Post
That would have to be 5 ground stations. The satellites were shut down in 2009...
not sure what satellites you are referring to...

the copas-sarsat satellite system is fully functional
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:19
  #930 (permalink)  

 
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I agree, O Ancient One. But I would like to know if the BEA is actually saying something firmer than 'probability'.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:28
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Assuming this is actually it, has anyone idea how long it takes to raise it from the those depths?
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:29
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Detector 6000

Alseamar system on H/V Laplace
Not sure how this system work, but it seems different from other trailed beacon locators. They say it's unique, and imerged at 1.000 meters deep, this system can discriminate CVR/FDR signal at a range of +4.000 m. It looks more like sono buoys.

Doté de nombreux moyens d’hydrographie, le Laplace a embarqué des outils spécialisés, dont le système Detector de la société française Alseamar. « Grâce à 20 ans d’expérience dans le domaine de l’acoustique sous-marine, Alseamar a conçu et fabriqué ce système unique au monde. Immergé à environ 1000 mètres sous l’eau, le Detector écoute et discrimine à plus de 4 kilomètres signal émis par les balises fixées aux enregistreurs de vol parmi les bruits ambiants de la mer », explique cette filiale du groupe Alcen, qui dispose à bord du Laplace d’une équipe constituée d’un ingénieur et de deux techniciens. En tout, trois Detector 6000 seront déployés par le bâtiment hydrographique de la Marine nationale pour définir une position la plus précise possible des enregistreurs.

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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:29
  #933 (permalink)  
 
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Now that we know of u/w signals having been detected by means yet unknown and that such emissions are likely to be from the DFDR could those with knowledge and expertise please of such- sub surface searches inform us of the acoustic/detection range of these signals.

ps whilst typing the above I just read takata`s post which says 4m, but at 1000m depth. Given the wreckage may be lying at greater depth, what then would the range be.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 18:41
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That's for their system DETECTOR 1000 but I guess it's the same for greater depth :
http://www.acsa-alcen.com/positioning-acoustics/detector-1000

Last edited by takata; 1st Jun 2016 at 18:45. Reason: wrong link
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 19:00
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this system can discriminate CVR/FDR signal at a range of +4.000 m.
Chronus,

That's the French way of writing +4,000 m.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 19:03
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Originally Posted by takata View Post
That's for their system DETECTOR 1000 but I guess it's the same for greater depth :
http://www.acsa-alcen.com/positioning-acoustics/detector-1000
In that case they must be well within sniffing distance, even for someone bunged up with a heavy cold, I would have thought.

Is it not therefore time to pop something down there for a quick look see.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 19:09
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Originally Posted by India Four Two View Post
Chronus,

That's the French way of writing +4,000 m.
Ta India4, Gallic things do rather baffle me, give me simple things like feet and inches. By the look of it got excited over nothing. But there again, must say am a bit surprised that these u/w things can detect such small objects at such range. I suppose it is all to do with the Hunt for Red October type of under water going ons.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 19:50
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121.5/243.0 no longer used on Sats, at least by US

Originally Posted by x_navman View Post
not sure what satellites you are referring to...

the copas-sarsat satellite system is fully functional
The 121.5/243.0 was shut down, at least for the US. All ELT's were supposed to transmit on 406 by 2009, so they stopped listening. Sadly, most ELT's in the US are still not on 406, which means now ELT searches require a lot more work, almost always just to find a false alarm. In the past, COSPAS-SARSAT fixes would give a working area, based on doppler processing of 121.4/243.0, and that would usually resolve to a metropolitan area where a ground team could quickly find it. Now, we get reports from high altitude aircraft who hear it on guard, and have to launch SAR aircraft just to find out the general area of the ELT.
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 20:31
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How deep is the seabed there anyway?

not yet reported but the " general " area is claimed to be about 3000 Meters deep
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Old 1st Jun 2016, 20:35
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Originally Posted by notapilot15 View Post
So, they are using Underwater Autonomous Vehicles!!! Interesting choice. I thought Towed Pinger Locator would be their first choice. But who knows where in the world are those TPLs. I think they are doing the best with they have on hand.

I guess the three UAVs are working in 8 hr shifts.
8 hour survey - Data download few minutes - recharge.

DIRECTOR-6000 goes down 1000 m (DIRECTOR-1000 300 m)

Under perfect conditions ULB can be heard from 4000 m, under normal conditions 2000 m may be.

How deep is the seabed there anyway?
Very deep. 3000m +.
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