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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 25th May 2016, 08:00
  #761 (permalink)  
 
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the interim report no 1 in English - AF447

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-c...90601e1.en.pdf

and an excerpt re ACARS p50-51

Interpretation of the messages
Interpretation of the maintenance-related messages is made delicate by the
following factors:
 this type of message is only transmitted once, at the first occurrence. It
can only indicate that a fault has appeared. If the fault has disappeared, no
message is transmitted to indicate this,
 some messages concerning the aircraft’s configuration such as stall or
overspeed warnings are not recorded,
message-timing by the CMC is accurate to within one minute,
 the order in which these messages are transmitted does not necessarily
correspond to the associated sequence of events,
 the limited rate of communication by satellite does not make it possible to
determine directly the time of message reception precisely to the nearest
second,
 in the CFR, a class 1 fault message is not necessarily accompanied by a
cockpit ef-fect, and it is possible that a cockpit effect message is not the
consequence of a fault message.

and the flow...

acars flow - AF447.jpg

Last edited by vmandr; 25th May 2016 at 08:10.
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:02
  #762 (permalink)  
 
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Will the Egyptian authorities be able to analyse the FDR and CVR or does this need the expertise of the units' manufacturer? If the French are not given access directly I don't think we will ever learn the truth. Who is the manufacture of the CVR and FDR on the A320?
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:02
  #763 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by D Bru View Post
Seems that the Greeks are sticking to their interpretation of the radar data (90 left, 360 right).

"We will start sending the main data from tomorrow, including the radar tracking and the conversation with controllers," one source who requested anonymity told Reuters.
....
The source close to the probe, and a second defense ministry official, said Greece stuck by its account that the plane had lurched violently in mid-air before it disappeared from radar screens. There has already been an exchange of information with Egypt, the sources said.

Egyptian authorities said they did not see the plane swerve and lose altitude before it vanished from their radars.

Greek Defense Minister Panos Kammenos last week said the aircraft took a sudden 90 degree turn, before flipping 360 degrees in the opposite direction and plunging from a cruising altitude of 37,000 feet to 15,000 feet, then vanishing.

"The picture we have off our radars is what the minister announced... we insist on that," the defense official said."
Surely whatever happened could also be seen by the British military radar on Cyprus. The crash site seems to be approximately equidistant between Crete, Cyprus and Egypt.
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:10
  #764 (permalink)  
 
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@vmandr

Thanks for retrieving the English version of AF447 Interim 1 report.
I feel the answer to Ranger One's query is contained in pages 25 to 27 where the BEA explains the one minute "correlation window" principle that regroups alarms upon priority.
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:18
  #765 (permalink)  
 
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Surely whatever happened could also be seen by the British military radar on Cyprus. The crash site seems to be approximately equidistant between Crete, Cyprus and Egypt.
You would think so. Even Nicosia probably had it.
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:23
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@mross
Will the Egyptian authorities be able to analyse the FDR and CVR or does this need the expertise of the units' manufacturer? If the French are not given access directly ...
The Egyptians have stated earlier that the recorders would be read by the Egyptian authorities. Unless the damage would be too severe. Then the recorders would be sent to a 'foreign' specialist/manufacturer. Which is normal practice in cases like these.

Also note that the BEA and other parties are represented in the investigation. These parties will know. But in the case of AirAsia, in spite of explicit requests from the BEA, for instance the CVR data was not published 'en plein publique'. So lessons learned are not shared in full, which of course detracts from the value of a safety investigation.

My impression is that ACARS information would not have been adressed by the parties involved if they had not been 'leaked' earlier. Also, I think that modern day requirements for earlier public disclosure of known (and checked) and unknown facts is something that cannot be ignored by authorities. The case of MH370 has shown what it does to the credibility of authorities if they do not act properly in this respect. If the authorities do not publish these fact, then they run the risk of information being leaked that contains information that should not be leaked, like for instance privacy and such details.

Last edited by A0283; 25th May 2016 at 09:21. Reason: typo
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:34
  #767 (permalink)  
 
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I know what the Egyptians said, but wondered if they had the capability? Much of what they say seems ill-informed!
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:38
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@mross - what an Egyptian spokesman said is that they have the read-out capability. Which is getting more and more common. What they also said suggests that they do not have a large specialist lab. When you have to go there, then you are often close to going or working together with the manufacturers of the recorders anyway. So that is normal too.
I have no inside information on what they actually have. But it is clear that more countries are working on getting more capabilities in this field.

Last edited by A0283; 25th May 2016 at 09:04.
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Old 25th May 2016, 08:45
  #769 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Surely whatever happened could also be seen by the British military radar on Cyprus. The crash site seems to be approximately equidistant between Crete, Cyprus and Egypt.
You would think so. Even Nicosia probably had it.
Indeed. And it is very re-assuring they are being discrete about it. If they have anything it is reasonable to assume that conversations through the appropriate channels have been had.

No need to add to the feeding frenzy of amateur conjecture on here.
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Old 25th May 2016, 09:01
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It depends whether it's actually switched on. My last source was about three years ago, but at that time the cyprus Watchman radar had been switched off for years because interference from egypt (allegedly) created a picture that the SATCO didn't like.

Also looking at the projected location it would have been, what, a couple of hundred miles from Akotiri? Would that be within PSR or SSR range? (I genuinely don't know - hence asking the question!)
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Old 25th May 2016, 09:27
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Originally Posted by md80fanatic View Post
All the bodies have not yet been recovered. It seems equally strange, to me, to suggest a high speed impact was the definitive prime force as opposed to the Egyptians claim of explosive residue, at this juncture.

Why do airline professionals, whose careers have been most negatively affected by terrorism, strive so hard to accept any cause over even the mere suggestion of foul play? It doesn't compute.
With respect...

sitigeltfel did not suggest "a high speed inpact was the definitive prime force" etc. What he, and klintE and myself were pointing out is that the statement by the Egyptian "forensic expert" -- that the condition of the remains proved the existence of an explosion -- was both incorrect and premature. That's all.

Contrary to your assertion, we (aviation professionals), at least those of us with experience in accident investigation, are not accepting any cause at this point. And I certainly have no problem accepting that foul play could be involved. Or not. Time, and the evidence, will tell.
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Old 25th May 2016, 10:38
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I know what the Egyptians said, but wondered if they had the capability?
Most airlines these days have quality assurance programs based on QAR readouts and analysis, the data on the FDR-s is identical, if the interfaces are not compromised then with the right software the data readout is as straight forward as looking at pictures on a SD card. It only becomes tricky if the interface or the memory module itself is damaged (which could be the case given the intensity of the impact). Similarly the CVR records digital audio, it can be easily read out by the right software with the appropriate interface.
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Old 25th May 2016, 11:08
  #773 (permalink)  
 
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If the French are not given access directly I don't think we will ever learn the truth.
Are things really that bad in Egypt?
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Old 25th May 2016, 11:56
  #774 (permalink)  
 
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Angry Please read all thread before posting!!!!!

Exactly Scott. You have answered your own question. The reason your post has likely been removed is this was all discussed much earlier in this thread so your query is a duplication.

Why don't people read THE WHOLE THREAD before posting duplicate BS? Most questions being asked here have been answered more than once already.
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:02
  #775 (permalink)  
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Looking at the "marinetraffic dot com" web site the vessel "PMS Burullus" is engaged in what has to be a search pattern! About 200 miles NNW of Alexandria. Shows as a pale blue diamond on the web site, but look at its recent track.
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:05
  #776 (permalink)  
 
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goeasy,

People don't generally have all day to read 40 pages worth of nonsense?

Last edited by Contact Approach; 25th May 2016 at 12:41.
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:20
  #777 (permalink)  
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According to the marinetraffic web site the vessel "PMS Burullus" has spent the past 10 hours in a rectangular grid pattern searching an area just 1Km by 400 metres. You have to zoom right in to see the pattern. All done with the vessel pointing NE, which means it has been reversing and crabbing its way around most of the time moving very very slowly.

I wonder if they are "on to something"?

Fingers crossed for the sake of all involved.
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:21
  #778 (permalink)  
 
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goeasy is correct..it was discussed..but as long as chunks of discussion ( no doubt deemed to be off topic) are being deleted there's bound to be an on going game of whack-a-mole....
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:24
  #779 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
It depends whether it's actually switched on. My last source was about three years ago, but at that time the cyprus Watchman radar had been switched off for years because interference from egypt (allegedly) created a picture that the SATCO didn't like.

Also looking at the projected location it would have been, what, a couple of hundred miles from Akotiri? Would that be within PSR or SSR range? (I genuinely don't know - hence asking the question!)
The airport radars may have been switched off but the larger ones higher up on Cyprus almost certainly were not. I would be very surprised if that area of the Mediterranean was not in solid radar cover from several sources other than the normal ATC systems. However, none of them will be eager to publicly declare their coverage.
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Old 25th May 2016, 12:25
  #780 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
goeasy,

People don't have generally have all day to read 40 pages worth of nonsense?
True enough, but what people can do (should do) before posting a question, or media quote, is do a quick word search of the thread. That takes but a minute or two and saves the rest of the readers having to endure multiple repeats, and perhaps saves the poster being embarrassed, or exposed to the slings and arrows of other ppruners...
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