Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Metrojet crash Eygpt

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Metrojet crash Eygpt

Old 18th Nov 2015, 18:28
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 77
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DIBO
- "]
- given the presence of the extra cargo hold fuel tanks, following the initial explosive energy, TNT has 5 times more combustive energy, enough to set the (leaking) extra fuel tanks ablaze, with the incomplete combustion producing thick black smoke
my (military) explosives training was limited to crudely blasting away brickwork with single quarter-kilo TNT sticks, but my uneducated guess would be that a 1 Kg TNT charge in the tail/APU section, would cause massive havoc to the tail section, not corroborated by available photos (it would however explain the HS separation )
TNT X Combustive energy than Jet fuel? No, rather an understatement I`d say.
1 gm TNT = 4000 JOULES.
1000 gm TNT = 4,000,000 Joules, result nothing much larger than confetti.

Latest news says the explosive was in a mixer fiz can. If this be true then no way would 1 kg be packed in it.
Chronus is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 19:20
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Chronus
TNT X Combustive energy than Jet fuel? No, rather an understatement I`d say.
1 gm TNT = 4000 JOULES.
1000 gm TNT = 4,000,000 Joules, result nothing much larger than confetti.

Latest news says the explosive was in a mixer fiz can. If this be true then no way would 1 kg be packed in it.
One suspects the message got "summarized" on its way up the chain of command viz.

Bomb Tech: We found the device to consist of a mixture with brisance generating an overpressure of kPa and an R.E.F. in the range 0.1 to 1.0

Manager: Sir, it was the equivalent of 10g to 1Kg of TNT

Director: Minister, it was equivalent of 1Kg of TNT

Minister: The device consisted of 1Kg of TNT

jxf63 is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 19:43
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ventura, California
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Minister: The device consisted of 1Kg of TNT
Yes, that's exactly how it works!
thcrozier is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 19:56
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 65
Posts: 7,378
Received 565 Likes on 355 Posts
Originally Posted by AreOut
I see the 1/0 switch so supposedly manual activation but only Russians and Ukrainians on the plane...doesn't add up
I think that picture was a sample from a "how to" in an ISIS pub, not a piece of evidence from the actual crash. I'd not read too much into it.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 20:04
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Buckinghamshire
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think that picture was a sample from a "how to" in an ISIS pub, not a piece of evidence from the actual crash. I'd not read too much into it.
And maybe I read too much into it. The Can museum (!) SCHWEPPES-Pineapple soda-330mL-Egypt

has this can as being from Egypt.... If it is a how to... they happen to have chosen an appropriate can.
quentinc is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 20:22
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: EHAM
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
4.000.000 J is quite a lot of mechanical energy: it can lift a fire truck 40m high, to give an idea of the damage it can do. An inefficient explosion of a smaller amount of TNT will transfer far less energy to the airplane structure but would be more than destructive enough.

In my opinion the electronics can not have been only pressure based. The altitude where the bomb went off was too close to cruise alt so small measurement errors could have made the bomb fail to explode and if it would explode it would be unclear when.

Taking into account they wanted to film the explosion I think a timer was used. With a couple of sensors (vibration, pressure) it is easy to determine when the plane takes off and wait until the plane is above a predetermined camera position.

Sensor boards that can perform such functions are present in consumer electronics, it is impossible to prevent they get in the wrong hands. To prevent such an event, focus must be on detection of explosives.
StuntPilot is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 21:06
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by thcrozier
Yes, that's exactly how it works!
I know
jxf63 is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 21:40
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If the bars were replenished in SSH and the bars sealed, then there would be no need for them to be counted by the crew. It could be that someone in the catering company could be the perpetrator. It is my belief something went off in the rear galley area due to the damage on door 4R which wouldn't be the case if it were in the hold.
HeartyMeatballs is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2015, 22:20
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Asia
Age: 62
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Explosive heat is not the only consideration, velocity of detonation, volume of explosive products and fragmentation all come into play.
bud leon is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 00:19
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,194
Received 47 Likes on 31 Posts
A range of 0.1 to 1.0 would be equivalent to a range of 100g to 1KG (unless there's a technical point I'm missing). Or maybe the point was that managers can't do math.
Chu Chu is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 02:05
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ventura, California
Age: 65
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hahahaha...
I'd put myself at the Director level, so I know that whatever I receive from the Manager is already filled with errors of all kinds, and whatever the Minister says I said will be ten times as distorted.


And with that, I'd say this thread has run its course. Unless some facts indicating a Black Swan event surface, there is already plenty of information here for enhancing self-education.

Last edited by thcrozier; 19th Nov 2015 at 04:00. Reason: Editorial Opinion
thcrozier is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 06:07
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Chu Chu
A range of 0.1 to 1.0 would be equivalent to a range of 100g to 1KG (unless there's a technical point I'm missing). Or maybe the point was that managers can't do math.
Good spot ! It was of course a subtle dig at the manager's matk skills and not a typo by me, oh no
jxf63 is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 07:06
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Estonia
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
tail branch speculation

Kulverstukas wrote:
PPS almost all suggestions of "tail" branch of PPRuNe armchair investigation was right
I wonder what it means... Is it part of fuselage somewhere from wings to tail, or is it close proximity to tail?

And how burns on passengers and scorched seats can be explained? Heat from explosives only is not sufficient.
Prada is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 09:40
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US/EU
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
bud leon: Not sure what you're getting at.
Not trying to get at anything. When I Googled the name yesterday, nothing turned up other than the above mentioned news source. Nothing from the State Department. I Googled it again today, and now it shows up. Strange.
Mark in CA is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 11:44
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,605
Received 228 Likes on 131 Posts
So much for the "least risk bomb location" on A320/321...............
Uplinker is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 11:45
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Another "source/expert" told "Kommersant" that bomb was planted under seat in the right rear last row. It makes hole 0.8 x 1 m and cut signal cables to FDR. So either he has some inside info or read pprune/aviaforum.

Also there is another leak, now LifeNews: examination was carried on 34 bodies of passengers occupying rows 32-38, which bears explosion marks and also traces of TNT. No definite place of explosive device determined, versions are from rear cargo hold to under a seat to on the body of suicide bomber to upper cargo compartment.

Also "experts" claims that blast was directed from rear to front, separating tail section, so bodies of the front passengers and crew doesn't' bear explosion marks.

Last edited by Kulverstukas; 19th Nov 2015 at 12:01.
Kulverstukas is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 11:56
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Also I doesn't see this photo before:



from
Kulverstukas is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 16:59
  #98 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 81
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by silvertate

Note to Pontius - there is no 100ml limit on catering supplies, as you might expect.
Statement.

Therefore either lax pax security or lax catering security.

Given an earlier statement (Mitrosoft' s post) that it was under a pax seat suggests pax security.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 19:03
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 65
Posts: 7,378
Received 565 Likes on 355 Posts
IIRC, in the now locked thread that video was given an analysis by someone who "gets" video creation. I vote with Kulverstukas on that score: not a good piece of input/data when analyzing the event.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
Old 19th Nov 2015, 19:13
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I also can summarize information which we know as 100% facts and can use safely now:

1) Any photo of debris
2) Any video from media agencies shot at the site.
3) Information from FR24, confirmed speed, alt and stage of flight at the moment of accident
4) Information about abrupt ending of FDR recording
5) Information about traces of explosives found at the debris
6) Pax list
7) Condition of airframe and engines from airline papers

Anything else still are "leaks" and BS from unconfirmed "sources"

Any addition to the list?
Kulverstukas is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.