BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,381
Holes, Inner or outtie
I note a lot of posts about holes in structures and speculative conclusions about bombs etc.
Almost every prang that destroys an aircraft has such. The challenge to the investigator is to assess what velocity was involved and by what type of particle origin.
The vast majority originate from aircraft or engine structures that are forced or pushed outward at no more than the impact vector velocity. The tearing fractures along the hole are classic (tensile shear) in this sense.
Explosive impacts (missiles, bombs and/or uncontained engine parts) impact at much higher velocities (over a range). Thus these holes often have the presence of cratering (adiabatic shear etc.) and/or multiple dissimilar impacts over an area near the hole.
The investigators on scene know this and can be expected to comment if seen.
(note: I haven't seen any comments from them at this time)
Almost every prang that destroys an aircraft has such. The challenge to the investigator is to assess what velocity was involved and by what type of particle origin.
The vast majority originate from aircraft or engine structures that are forced or pushed outward at no more than the impact vector velocity. The tearing fractures along the hole are classic (tensile shear) in this sense.
Explosive impacts (missiles, bombs and/or uncontained engine parts) impact at much higher velocities (over a range). Thus these holes often have the presence of cratering (adiabatic shear etc.) and/or multiple dissimilar impacts over an area near the hole.
The investigators on scene know this and can be expected to comment if seen.
(note: I haven't seen any comments from them at this time)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 63
Posts: 174
HM UK Govt and easy jet do not trust the SSH airport personnel one iota if it means a sterile aircraft
so that means its not ness the assumed lax pax security checks (although BA have a double layer with an extra one at the gate before boarding) its the whole air side thing
so from tomorrow 10 easyjet flights back to UK (6 of them rescues)
no hold bags/pushchairs/wheelchairs - all have to be left behind and will be sent on next week
only allowed one small cabin bag
blimey what an operation and stress at the airport for 1000's of pax and staff
so that means its not ness the assumed lax pax security checks (although BA have a double layer with an extra one at the gate before boarding) its the whole air side thing
so from tomorrow 10 easyjet flights back to UK (6 of them rescues)
no hold bags/pushchairs/wheelchairs - all have to be left behind and will be sent on next week
only allowed one small cabin bag
blimey what an operation and stress at the airport for 1000's of pax and staff
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Body found 20 miles away
A Daily Wail link I'm afraid so accuracy not guaranteed........
Could toddler killed in Egypt air disaster hold the clue to why the plane crashed? Tiny girl?s body is discovered 20 miles from crash site, suggesting Russian jet may have exploded earlier than thought | Daily Mail Online
Search area now increased to 25 miles
Could toddler killed in Egypt air disaster hold the clue to why the plane crashed? Tiny girl?s body is discovered 20 miles from crash site, suggesting Russian jet may have exploded earlier than thought | Daily Mail Online
Search area now increased to 25 miles
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: wales
Age: 77
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by oleostrut
Upper HS support is present at crash scene.
The HS is attached to the airframe at only 3 points, the 2 aft pivot pins and the jackscrew at the noes.
The pivot pins are held by 2 support assemblies at either side of the fishmouth at the aft most station of the fuselage. These supports are removd to install the HS, then replaced to attach the pivot pins.
The upper aft most station frame assembly is clearly visible in the photo, the jackscrew is there as well, but not recognizable in such a low res pic. A high res pic was posted last night, but is gone now. I went to the source and got a 404 error, so gone for good, I guess.
In second pic, the red lines are the removable support rods that engage the HS pivots, the yellow lines point to their upper mount areas, visible in the other photo.
The HS is attached to the airframe at only 3 points, the 2 aft pivot pins and the jackscrew at the noes.
The pivot pins are held by 2 support assemblies at either side of the fishmouth at the aft most station of the fuselage. These supports are removd to install the HS, then replaced to attach the pivot pins.
The upper aft most station frame assembly is clearly visible in the photo, the jackscrew is there as well, but not recognizable in such a low res pic. A high res pic was posted last night, but is gone now. I went to the source and got a 404 error, so gone for good, I guess.
In second pic, the red lines are the removable support rods that engage the HS pivots, the yellow lines point to their upper mount areas, visible in the other photo.
now look at this enlargement of the image you showed
I can see what you believe to be the screwjack but it is not even central with the panel, there is no hole, I don't know what it is but pretty sure it is not the screw jack, additionally I think the panel is the outer skin where the TP fixes and has been torn upwards when it departed (see below)
Now for another view of the rear assemblies
if you look at this the green circle shows what I think is the top screwjack panel (the hole is there) and there is no sign of a screwjack.
Last edited by oldoberon; 5th Nov 2015 at 18:44. Reason: typos
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 19
have a look at Roman Kosarev's twitter (https://twitter.com/Kosarev_RT/statu...89781569806337),
there is a very head on shot of the tail debris from the front.
ARB/galley seems to be pretty intact?
there is a very head on shot of the tail debris from the front.
ARB/galley seems to be pretty intact?
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 19
A Daily Wail link I'm afraid so accuracy not guaranteed........
Could toddler killed in Egypt air disaster hold the clue to why the plane crashed? Tiny girl?s body is discovered 20 miles from crash site, suggesting Russian jet may have exploded earlier than thought | Daily Mail Online
Search area now increased to 25 miles
Could toddler killed in Egypt air disaster hold the clue to why the plane crashed? Tiny girl?s body is discovered 20 miles from crash site, suggesting Russian jet may have exploded earlier than thought | Daily Mail Online
Search area now increased to 25 miles
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: wales
Age: 77
Posts: 316
Ian W Flash from engine(s) break upward into wing(s) on minus 10g or more bunt causing fuel tank explosion and igniting remains of wing and fuselage; second flash on explosion of remaining fuel on ground impact.
Look up "confirmation bias".
Stick with the cheese
Look up "confirmation bias".
Stick with the cheese
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,617
Originally Posted by WNTT
This fact hit me pretty hard that she was just found, so must have been far away from the crash site, especially that she was sitting with her parents in row 9!
The child may have been held on lap mother's, given that she's an infant. (Recall we did that when my son was very young).
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,544
Originally Posted by dead_pan
Apologies if this has been discussed previously, but there's a picture currently circulating on social media of a Metrojet airliner (not sure if its 'the' airliner) on the tarmac in Egypt with some very visible damage to the tail fin.
I wait with interest to understand how:
- With some informed discussion within the industry, and above, of the detailed wreckage photographs, where nobody has spotted the generally apparent (to knowledgeable observers, not all here but certainly a few) signs of an explosive, but there is much detailed discussion of an airframe failure
- With statements by both Egypt and Russia, the two most closely involved with the recovery, that they even today don't particularly but the explosive line
When it comes to the two "flashes" seen from a satellite, I seem to recall that when the Tu144 had an aerodynamic structural breakup at the Paris show (with minimal airshow fuel on board) there was a notable midair explosion and fire within seconds of the breakup, and another on contact with the ground.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,349
Originally Posted by oldoberon
have we evidence of a -10g bunt at 30k plus, doesn't appear enough damage to engines to have fallen from 30k, more likely torn off in tumbling during decent and a lower altitude
Now what will happen to an airframe without HS? Clue it was strong enough to break the fuselage into 4 main pieces, Cockpit, forward fuselage over wings, rear fuselage to read doors, remains of empenage minus HS and rudder.
It is the HS breaking away that needs to be explained in this incident.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 19
The investigators may need to ask: was her seatbelt fastened?
The article indicates her parents bodies haven't found yet (not identified in main wreckage?).
Assuming that her and her parents were in there seats (row 9), could there been an event that she (only) was sucked out to account for the distance from the main crash site. The plane made no course change nor declared an emergency, so unlikely.
The fact remains though how did she end up so far away from the main crash site
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by RHINO
Sinai plane crash: Russia and Egypt urge caution on bomb theory - BBC News
the only people talking about a bomb attack are the British and they are nowhere near the investigation.
the only people talking about a bomb attack are the British and they are nowhere near the investigation.
the US?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 863
With a positive ID the the passenger manifest is a good place to start. It's how we know where Atta, Al Shehi, Hanjour and Jarrah were sitting on 9/11 for starters.
(Although IIRC (FA) Betty Ong relayed some of this info which corroborated the manifest from AA11).
(Although IIRC (FA) Betty Ong relayed some of this info which corroborated the manifest from AA11).
