Flaperon washes up on Reunion Island
Wishful thinking. I don't see how a manually activated beacon which is not the type which works underwater (even if it did survive the impact with the ocean) could possibly help.
Well, maybe... if the passenger carrying it knew precisely what was happening to the aircraft and remained conscious long enough to operate it and the aircraft presented no shielding to radio waves and the batteries lasted the duration of the remainder of the flight...
Well, maybe... if the passenger carrying it knew precisely what was happening to the aircraft and remained conscious long enough to operate it and the aircraft presented no shielding to radio waves and the batteries lasted the duration of the remainder of the flight...
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Just chiming in, probably once and never again, I've been following, but since I'm not in the aviation industry... But I do have a degree in textile engineering and that last photo is the shell of a sewing machine, about 20/ 25 years old.
>>>I like the idea posted above of a sewing machine shell. But on a google search of images of sewing machines there is nothing that has holes for two dials at the bottom.<<<
The "bottom" is actually the top. The holes are for switches for straight/zigzag stitches and needle positioning (left, center, right).
best wishes Michiru (from now silent again, sorry for intruding)
>>>I like the idea posted above of a sewing machine shell. But on a google search of images of sewing machines there is nothing that has holes for two dials at the bottom.<<<
The "bottom" is actually the top. The holes are for switches for straight/zigzag stitches and needle positioning (left, center, right).
best wishes Michiru (from now silent again, sorry for intruding)
Flexstraw,
Bank angle protection on the B777 is designed to stop inadvertently over banking when manually flying. But if you want you can still try a barrel roll.
With MH370, if the autopilot is out, this feature will allow the plane to fly on to fuel exhaustion without spiralling in; a more conventional a/c would soon spiral down.
Bank angle protection on the B777 is designed to stop inadvertently over banking when manually flying. But if you want you can still try a barrel roll.
With MH370, if the autopilot is out, this feature will allow the plane to fly on to fuel exhaustion without spiralling in; a more conventional a/c would soon spiral down.
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PersonFromPorlock, I plugged your numbers into an online Radar Horizon Calculator, and they jibe. However, you said "these numbers don't agree with the observed altitude of MH370". I don't think we (the public) have altitude data after the transponder is turned off, where are you getting that? The official Malaysian conclusion is the disappearance of MH370 is due to "human intervention", and that is clearly a bitter pill for them to swallow. Much better for them if it is Boeing's fault. Flying low, disappearing off the radar to the NW, then turning south is brilliant- if your objective is to become famous for disappearing. Without the Marsat data we would never know that MH370 turned south and kept flying for many hours. It would have been the perfect crime.
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Actually, pretty much any aeroplane, in trim and left to its own devices will stay airborne indefinitely. It will fly some very scary excursions in pitch and roll, but it will continue to fly. Go and try it.
And I am not even talking a constant reduction in weight and shift of C/G due to fuel burn or asymmetric fuel burn.
The allien theory sound more reasonable than the idea of an aircraft flying straight for 7 hours without manual or automatic control.
Yes, some aircraft are spirally unstable. To be honest, I guess reduced aerodynamic stability is more likely with a fly by wire design because the FBW can compensate. But MH370 is widely believed to have had power available for the FBW until fuel exhaustion.
That's my point! The assumption of a constant track is without any evidence at all. Who's to say it didn't do multiple lazy 360's whilst remaining further north and still fitting in with the Inmarsat arcs?
Not on a constant track.
30 x 14 x 24 x 1.5 ~ 15,000+
nm of wandering and drifting before it ended up on the island.
At 1 knot drift, about 10,000 nm ...
It's actual track is anyone's guess.
I hope the French are able to verify, and look forward to their addition to the investigation.
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There is a theory that makes complete sense, but does not answer all the questions. The theory is of an undetected fire in the wiring in the cockpit area. If the fire melted wires in "the right order" then the pilots would not have known the problems they faced until it was too late (too much destroyed to be able to communicate), and the fumes from the fire could have incapacitated them before they were able to bring the aeroplane to a safe landing. Which would then leave the plane flying on the last "inputs" until it ran out of fuel or descended to the earth (meaning water or land).
The theory does make complete sense, and explains the situation completely. However it doesn't answer the questions like where did the aeroplane touch down, or how did the fire start.
I wouldn't doubt if there are other theories that come close to making complete sense, but this one is the simplest that answers all the questions (except what happened after the issues with communication and incapacitation of the pilots).
The theory does make complete sense, and explains the situation completely. However it doesn't answer the questions like where did the aeroplane touch down, or how did the fire start.
I wouldn't doubt if there are other theories that come close to making complete sense, but this one is the simplest that answers all the questions (except what happened after the issues with communication and incapacitation of the pilots).
Whatever its virtues as a theory it is incomplete at best.
Having run through the entire first thread that sprang up once the aircraft went missing, and having no few of my posts deleted as the mods tried very hard to herd cats in that thread ... nobody has explained to me the course change after last radio contact in a way that permits the fire story to make sense .. no less complete sense.
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PersonFromPorlock, I plugged your numbers into an online Radar Horizon Calculator, and they jibe. However, you said "these numbers don't agree with the observed altitude of MH370". I don't think we (the public) have altitude data after the transponder is turned off, where are you getting that?
The last known location, from and near the limits of Malaysian military radar, was at 02:22, 10 nautical miles (19 km; 12 mi) after passing waypoint MEKAR and 200 nmi (370 km; 230 mi) northwest of Penang at an altitude of 29,500 ft (9,000 m).
Edit: a few later calculations tell me the lower 62 feet of Pulau Perak would be below the horizon of the Penang radar. Since the island is 462 feet at its highest, it could have provided terrain masking over a very narrow azimuth. If we assume that MH370 was at FL295 and in the radar shadow of Pulau Perak, then it would have to fly out to 275 miles from Penang before being over the horizon and making an unseen turn. That's making the further assumption that the Penang radar could skin paint it at that range.
Or, of course, 200 nm may simply be the detection limit for that radar system and that target.
Last edited by PersonFromPorlock; 5th Aug 2015 at 16:24.
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At the time of posting, we are awaiting information from Toulouse meanwhile, from the Wiki
There can't be many unaccounted-for flaperons from a 777 floating in the Indian Ocean?
On 29 July 2015, airliner marine debris was found on a beach in Saint-André, on Réunion, an island in the western Indian Ocean, about 4,000 km (2,500 mi) west of the underwater search area.[73] The object had a stenciled internal marking "657 BB" consistent with the code for a portion of a right wing flaperon from a Boeing 777
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There is nothing wrong with using the Wikipedia article. Many people have worked long and hard to ensure the article is as accurate as it can be, and that it is kept neutral.
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Spot
Whether it is a restricted passenger electronic device or not is another question, but the "Spot" device works well from within the cabin when tracing a flight path, (which, I assume, was the point being made by the original poster who suggested it).
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PersonFromPorlock
The Wikipedia snippet you posted leads to some very revealing information I had overlooked, or had failed to document until now. This information brings something new an a tad revolutionary to the current altitude discussion here. The article you referenced provided sources: NYT and Reuters articles from March 14, 2014. These articles provided among the most relevant and detailed and presumably authenticated statements detailing the data from the "leaks" that existed before Malaysia laid down a blanket of silence from any but the official sources. Once we look at these articles we find that these "leaks" actually came from an "official" source: Malaysia’s air force chief, Rodzali Daud.
NYT:
"When Flight 370 lost contact with ground controllers, it was more than 100 miles from Kota Bharu and 200 miles from Butterworth, distances that he said could degrade accuracy.
But the altitudes measured as the plane crossed the peninsula would be more reliable, he said."
"Military radar last recorded the aircraft flying at an altitude of 29,500 feet, about 200 miles northwest of Penang and headed toward India’s Andaman Islands."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/wo...r.html?hp&_r=1
Reuters:
"Malaysia's air force chief said on Wednesday an aircraft that could have been the missing plane was plotted on military radar at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island off Malaysia's west coast."
Exclusive: Radar data suggests missing Malaysia plane deliberately flown way off course - sources | Reuters
So from all this, we learn that the Malaysian radar had recorded an altitude of 29,500 feet at LKP (more likely 9,000 meters and the NYT did a translation), and we also learn that Daud had greater faith in the accuracy of the altitudes recorded over the peninsula (the altitude data we would love to have.)
I can't help but adding this:
On the same day, (March 14th), Malaysian defense minister Hishammuddin Hussein stated that those reports were false:
"I would like to refer to news reports suggesting that the aircraft may have continued flying for some time after the last contact, as Malaysia Airlines will confirm shortly, those reports are inaccurate."
Asia Times Online :: Confusion deepens over Flight 370
Three days earlier, on the 11th, Air Force chief Daud had issued his infamous retraction for statements to a Malaysian newspaper: "I wish to state that I did not make any such statements as above, what occurred was that the Berita Harian journalist" - He was denying statements he had made on March 8th saying: "they tracked the signal to Pulau Perak on the country's west coast."
This tells me that the NYT and Reuters chose to run their stories even in the face of the Malaysian denials!
And all through this time, a dozen nations were searching the SCS for a plane that couldn't have been there.
I believe the leaks and discount the "official version."Later they were forced to give up more information as in the Interim Report, and I suspect much of that is fudged too.
The Wikipedia snippet you posted leads to some very revealing information I had overlooked, or had failed to document until now. This information brings something new an a tad revolutionary to the current altitude discussion here. The article you referenced provided sources: NYT and Reuters articles from March 14, 2014. These articles provided among the most relevant and detailed and presumably authenticated statements detailing the data from the "leaks" that existed before Malaysia laid down a blanket of silence from any but the official sources. Once we look at these articles we find that these "leaks" actually came from an "official" source: Malaysia’s air force chief, Rodzali Daud.
NYT:
"When Flight 370 lost contact with ground controllers, it was more than 100 miles from Kota Bharu and 200 miles from Butterworth, distances that he said could degrade accuracy.
But the altitudes measured as the plane crossed the peninsula would be more reliable, he said."
"Military radar last recorded the aircraft flying at an altitude of 29,500 feet, about 200 miles northwest of Penang and headed toward India’s Andaman Islands."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/wo...r.html?hp&_r=1
Reuters:
"Malaysia's air force chief said on Wednesday an aircraft that could have been the missing plane was plotted on military radar at 2:15 a.m., 200 miles northwest of Penang Island off Malaysia's west coast."
Exclusive: Radar data suggests missing Malaysia plane deliberately flown way off course - sources | Reuters
So from all this, we learn that the Malaysian radar had recorded an altitude of 29,500 feet at LKP (more likely 9,000 meters and the NYT did a translation), and we also learn that Daud had greater faith in the accuracy of the altitudes recorded over the peninsula (the altitude data we would love to have.)
I can't help but adding this:
On the same day, (March 14th), Malaysian defense minister Hishammuddin Hussein stated that those reports were false:
"I would like to refer to news reports suggesting that the aircraft may have continued flying for some time after the last contact, as Malaysia Airlines will confirm shortly, those reports are inaccurate."
Asia Times Online :: Confusion deepens over Flight 370
Three days earlier, on the 11th, Air Force chief Daud had issued his infamous retraction for statements to a Malaysian newspaper: "I wish to state that I did not make any such statements as above, what occurred was that the Berita Harian journalist" - He was denying statements he had made on March 8th saying: "they tracked the signal to Pulau Perak on the country's west coast."
This tells me that the NYT and Reuters chose to run their stories even in the face of the Malaysian denials!
And all through this time, a dozen nations were searching the SCS for a plane that couldn't have been there.
I believe the leaks and discount the "official version."Later they were forced to give up more information as in the Interim Report, and I suspect much of that is fudged too.
Last edited by Propduffer; 5th Aug 2015 at 19:59.
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PersonFromPorlock, Pulau Perak is very small, it would be difficult to stay in the radar shadow and would require flying directly away from the radar. The tracks I've seen toward Mekar would not line up. According to the specs, that RAT-31 DL radar has a 270 nm range, but the last detection was at 200 nm. An airliner is an ideal radar target, huge and reflective, and at 29,500' it should have been detected out to max range. It doesn't add up, could be that it is a different variant of that radar, or they operate it at reduced power. Too many unknowns. I would think the searchers are privy to all these details, as they need them to calculate fuel burn/range. Let's hope the French are more forthcoming with their findings on the flaperon.
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The Malaysian stone wall is under some serious attack
"Now that the French have invited the Malaysians to participate in the examination of the wing, the French judge expects information from Malaysia about its criminal investigation into the flight’s disappearance, the prosecutor’s spokeswoman said. “There has to be some reciprocity.” It wasn’t clear how the judge would respond if Malaysia doesn’t comply. A senior official at Malaysia’s Ministry of Transport said the country hasn’t been concealing any information from its criminal investigation into the disappearance. “We have nothing to hide,” he said, declining to comment further."
France Broadens Its MH370 Probe Through Wreckage Analysis - WSJ
The Australians had to agree to hush up in order to get information from the Malaysians. The French have no such hindrance.
"Now that the French have invited the Malaysians to participate in the examination of the wing, the French judge expects information from Malaysia about its criminal investigation into the flight’s disappearance, the prosecutor’s spokeswoman said. “There has to be some reciprocity.” It wasn’t clear how the judge would respond if Malaysia doesn’t comply. A senior official at Malaysia’s Ministry of Transport said the country hasn’t been concealing any information from its criminal investigation into the disappearance. “We have nothing to hide,” he said, declining to comment further."
France Broadens Its MH370 Probe Through Wreckage Analysis - WSJ
The Australians had to agree to hush up in order to get information from the Malaysians. The French have no such hindrance.