Allegiant air incidents
Thread Starter
Allegiant air incidents
It's funny no one has commented on all the issues allegiant airlines in the US is having. They appear to be on the same path as valuejet and worse then some of the budget Far East carriers talked about so much here. Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.
Thread Starter
Relevant ATC tape. Since the airport was closed for airshows very little tower chatter. Go to 12:40 on the tape. At that point they switch from enroute ATC trying to get permission to land. At the very end there is a short communication where tower clears them to land but advises a trailer is past the hold short line.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kf...2015-1730Z.mp3
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kf...2015-1730Z.mp3
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To the Capt discharge : reading relevant NOTAMs today becomes a challenge , and mising something among the garbage is easy.
Yesterday I made a VFR flight plan from Germany to Holland and the automatic NOTAM briefing I received for that route was 9 pages long that included all the security advices for Khartoum, Damascus , Baghdad FIR plus the Yemeni airspace situation, plus TACAN bearings unlocks ( whatever that is) in various military airbases I was not even flying close to ,and dozens of Crane erections with their relevant GPS coordinates.
Is it the same in the USA ? NOTAM everything to cover yourself ?
On that issue it is difficult to understand an IFR flight being cleared by ATC to a closed airfield, or are ATC in the USA also not getting briefings on NOTAMS ?
Yesterday I made a VFR flight plan from Germany to Holland and the automatic NOTAM briefing I received for that route was 9 pages long that included all the security advices for Khartoum, Damascus , Baghdad FIR plus the Yemeni airspace situation, plus TACAN bearings unlocks ( whatever that is) in various military airbases I was not even flying close to ,and dozens of Crane erections with their relevant GPS coordinates.
Is it the same in the USA ? NOTAM everything to cover yourself ?
On that issue it is difficult to understand an IFR flight being cleared by ATC to a closed airfield, or are ATC in the USA also not getting briefings on NOTAMS ?
Thread Starter
Notams can in fact be difficult based on the numbers at major airports. Fargo ND only had 8 Notams in effect and this would have been the first one.
FDC 5/5699 ZMP ND..AIRSPACE FARGO, ND..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION. DUE TO THE U.S. NAVY BLUE ANGELS, THE U.S. NAVY LEAPFROGS, THE USMC HARRIER AND VARIOUS OTHER AERIAL DEMONSTRATIONS, EFFECTIVE 1507231700 UNTIL 1507232200, 1507241700 UNTIL 1507242200, 1507251600 UNTIL 1507252200, AND 1507261600 UNTIL 1507262200. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.145, MANAGEMENT OF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS IN THE VICINITY OF AERIAL DEMONSTRATIONS AND MAJOR SPORTING EVENTS, AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 5 NM RADIUS OF 465430N0964859W OR THE FARGO /FAR/ VORTAC 360 DEGREE RADIAL AT 9.4 NM, SFC-16000FT UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. MARK RINGHAM, PHONE 701-866-9078, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. THE FARGO /FAR/ ATCT, PHONE 701-235-8894, IS THE COORDINATION FACILITY. 1507231700-1507262200EST
The more relevant issue however is Allegiant's policy of flight planning with the absolute minimum fuel. The flight was notified by enroute control the airfield would be closed and did not have enough fuel to divert to a airfield 70 miles away or just hold for 20 minutes and land at Fargo.
FDC 5/5699 ZMP ND..AIRSPACE FARGO, ND..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION. DUE TO THE U.S. NAVY BLUE ANGELS, THE U.S. NAVY LEAPFROGS, THE USMC HARRIER AND VARIOUS OTHER AERIAL DEMONSTRATIONS, EFFECTIVE 1507231700 UNTIL 1507232200, 1507241700 UNTIL 1507242200, 1507251600 UNTIL 1507252200, AND 1507261600 UNTIL 1507262200. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.145, MANAGEMENT OF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS IN THE VICINITY OF AERIAL DEMONSTRATIONS AND MAJOR SPORTING EVENTS, AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 5 NM RADIUS OF 465430N0964859W OR THE FARGO /FAR/ VORTAC 360 DEGREE RADIAL AT 9.4 NM, SFC-16000FT UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. MARK RINGHAM, PHONE 701-866-9078, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. THE FARGO /FAR/ ATCT, PHONE 701-235-8894, IS THE COORDINATION FACILITY. 1507231700-1507262200EST
The more relevant issue however is Allegiant's policy of flight planning with the absolute minimum fuel. The flight was notified by enroute control the airfield would be closed and did not have enough fuel to divert to a airfield 70 miles away or just hold for 20 minutes and land at Fargo.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The more relevant issue however is Allegiant's policy of flight planning with the absolute minimum fuel
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Blighty & Germania.
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought all airlines in the US were required to have a qualified dispatcher check the notams, so the dispatcher involved will be in trouble, not the captain. Unless he failed to read the printout!
Surprised it did not show up as a TFR on the Nav display.
When you buy a ticket with a bottom end budget airline, they should allow you to pay more for items like extra fuel and a fully sober or awake captain!
Glide approaches should be in every sim or base check.
Surprised it did not show up as a TFR on the Nav display.
When you buy a ticket with a bottom end budget airline, they should allow you to pay more for items like extra fuel and a fully sober or awake captain!
Glide approaches should be in every sim or base check.
Thread Starter
Dispatchers are required to do that and there was a TFR. TFR's do not show up on any airline nav displays I am aware of. That high tech stuff is reserved for private pilots and light aircraft.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Age: 74
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Outcome
Heard the tape on the local news this morning a couple of times.
Pilot clearly says he doesn't have fuel for the 70 mile diversion to GFK, can't wait the 20+ minutes until landing, but then manages to wait just fine and lands after the end of the airshow practice.
In other words, it sure looks like the flight crew got caught in a lie.
So what would be the outcome?
ATC can be heard on the tape getting quite cranky, in their position many I think would meet the flight at the gate with a large piece of pipe.
Or is this common, in which case I ask how ATC can tell a real emergency from an exaggerated one?
Pilot clearly says he doesn't have fuel for the 70 mile diversion to GFK, can't wait the 20+ minutes until landing, but then manages to wait just fine and lands after the end of the airshow practice.
In other words, it sure looks like the flight crew got caught in a lie.
So what would be the outcome?
ATC can be heard on the tape getting quite cranky, in their position many I think would meet the flight at the gate with a large piece of pipe.
Or is this common, in which case I ask how ATC can tell a real emergency from an exaggerated one?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
To the Capt discharge : reading relevant NOTAMs today becomes a challenge , and mising something among the garbage is easy.
Yesterday I made a VFR flight plan from Germany to Holland and the automatic NOTAM briefing I received for that route was 9 pages long that included all the security advices for Khartoum, Damascus , Baghdad FIR plus the Yemeni airspace situation, plus TACAN bearings unlocks ( whatever that is) in various military airbases I was not even flying close to ,and dozens of Crane erections with their relevant GPS coordinates.
Is it the same in the USA ? NOTAM everything to cover yourself ?
Yesterday I made a VFR flight plan from Germany to Holland and the automatic NOTAM briefing I received for that route was 9 pages long that included all the security advices for Khartoum, Damascus , Baghdad FIR plus the Yemeni airspace situation, plus TACAN bearings unlocks ( whatever that is) in various military airbases I was not even flying close to ,and dozens of Crane erections with their relevant GPS coordinates.
Is it the same in the USA ? NOTAM everything to cover yourself ?
It was a real gotcha in my opinion. A long term closure for construction on one of the two suitable runways coupled with an oddly worded paragraph about a two hour closure for rubber removal on alternate Thursdays on the other suitable runway. The two notices were separated by the customary many paragraphs of cranes, nonstandard signs and unusable navaid radials. Don't know how I missed it.
We were able to bump up the cruise speed and maintain high speed below 10,000 and things worked out with seconds to spare. As I took the aircraft and turned off the runway I could see the maintenance crew coming on at the other end.
I thought all airlines in the US were required to have a qualified dispatcher check the notams, so the dispatcher involved will be in trouble, not the captain. Unless he failed to read the printout!
The company turns the event report over to the feds and you might get a letter and maybe some 'non-punitive' extra training. And in at least one case I am familiar with, an ASAP safety report doesn't protect you because since you signed the flight plan, it was a willful violation. Maybe I'm getting paranoid and cynical but as time goes on, I put less and less into writing while at work.
Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.
Hey, youse gotta problem wit dat?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Age: 74
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
70 mi vs. 20 mins?
Quote:
Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.
Their latest incident last weekend had their VP of flight ops flying a passenger flt to a airport that had been notam'd closed months in advance without enough fuel to divert to a airport 70 miles away. This VP is said to be highly critical of crews who are involved in the slightest incident including firing a Captain in June because he initiated a ground evacuation after both flight attendants and airport fire fighters reported smoke in the aircraft.
1. He was offered a diversion to GFK, 70 miles away. Declined due to stated lack of fuel.
2. He was told there was 20+ minutes before he could land at FGO, said he couldn't wait that long, he was bingo in 3-4 minutes, as I recall.
3. He was told he'd have to declare an emergency to land at FGO and some info on the closure NOTAM. Suddenly the pilot on the radio replies basically "never mind" and waits the 20 minutes to land.
So, is it possible he didn't have the fuel for GFK?
What would you have done?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would not take 20 minutes to divert to a field 70 nm away. So the guy tried to bully his way into the airport by saying 'emergency' when no emergency existed.
But he shouldn't worry. Our airline had a pilot manager get violated by the FAA. No problem, he didn't miss a day of work.
Chief Pilot in the left seat, director of Safety flying as FO. There should have been a NOTAM for that!
But he shouldn't worry. Our airline had a pilot manager get violated by the FAA. No problem, he didn't miss a day of work.
Chief Pilot in the left seat, director of Safety flying as FO. There should have been a NOTAM for that!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At a real airline, dispatch control would have been all over this and the crew would have been aware of the pending closure, crews at Allegiant often arrive at the aircraft 45 minutes or less prior to scheduled departure and are expected to read all the pages of notams and push on time?
I put the blame on the Allegiant's management.
I put the blame on the Allegiant's management.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As we all know, there have been disasters where one of the root causes was a failure to declare an emergency... Avianca B707 on Long Island comes to mind... ran out of fuel after holding for JFK.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Person Of Interest
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sailvi767...Do you or have you ever flown for a 121 carrier? If yes, then you are just stirring the pot. If no, then you don't have a clue and shouldn't be commenting...
The 45 minutes reserve is for this exact situation. And when you eat into that, and when you are over a suitable airport, you land.
Doesn't matter who is at the controls...
The 45 minutes reserve is for this exact situation. And when you eat into that, and when you are over a suitable airport, you land.
Doesn't matter who is at the controls...
Thread Starter
20,000 hours for a part 121 carrier. They arrived at a closed field with a easy divert 70 miles away. This is just one in a long ugly string of problems at this airline. They need some changes.
