Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Asiana runway excursion in Hiroshima

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Asiana runway excursion in Hiroshima

Old 16th Apr 2015, 11:59
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
monitored approach procedures

Centaurus, leadsled, fireflybob, skyhighfallguy etc:
If you are interested in this issue there is a website just being finalised that addresses this. From it you can download among many other documents the original report by Don Carmack of the Air Force IPIS-TR-70-3 LANDING WEATHER MINIMUMS INVESTIGATION from 1972, which as Centaurus says was done with a Sabreliner.

You can find it at Landing in poor visibility. | PICMA . org where there's a link in the page about making visual assessments. There's also a lot of material about CRM related stuff like monitoring, approach management, and cultural issues.

FYI the "funny" linked by leadsled was a fake notice created and put about by some disgruntled pilots as propaganda during a hotly disputed merger.
slast is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 12:59
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Oxide ghost
Age: 59
Posts: 50
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by number0009
Thank you for those. This one at the top of page 2 seems particularly good; had I not bothered to go to the second page, I'd have missed it.
Ambient Sheep is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 13:52
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Skyhigh , I didn't say it was never used , I did say generally , but are you saying that the monitored approach where the monitoring pilot takes over the landing on acquiring visual references and the PF then becomes PM is widely used in the US ? And how many airlines do you know use this in the US .

Again Jammed , I speak generally , and I still think that the concept is not widely used outside the UK .
Stone_cold is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 15:23
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Stone_cold,
for some further information see Usage and experience | PICMA . org
also the information on that site regarding recommendations by NTSB, FSF etc.
slast is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 18:08
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Many US airlines / regionals do monitored approaches for CAT II landings (requiring transition from approach to landing from a low DH). On approach, the captain will be PM, and near DH the captain will take over as PF and perform the landing while the FO switches role to PM.

However, with the advent of autoland, many operators feel this practice is now outdated. The PF flies (on A/P), the PM monitors -- autoland does the landing. There is no need to switch between PF/PM roles at low DH.

So instead of conducting PMA for CATII, they now require autoland on anything worse than CAT I minima.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 18:32
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Still doesn't seem widely used.

2 US carriers , 2 UK . No other "mainland EU ", Middle Eastern or Asian carrier . Don't know about Boeing , but Airbus Low Vis procedures don't change roles .

I did not say that it is not practised at all , for those who wish to read , I said "generally the concept doesn't exist outside of the UK ". If it has been used by a few airlines for many years or is used by 6 airlines worldwide , I think this would suggest that it is not practised " generally "outside of the originators of the concept .

Apologies , some in Canada also .

Last edited by Stone_cold; 16th Apr 2015 at 18:34. Reason: to include Canada
Stone_cold is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 18:43
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
stone_cold: that list isn't at all complete. Just off the top of my head I know three other regionals in the US with monitored approaches (if not autoland).
peekay4 is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 18:58
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Okay , exiting as it is now obvious that it is extensively practised worldwide .
Stone_cold is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 19:02
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Asiana boss apologizes; Downdraft possibility

HIROSHIMA – Asiana Airlines Vice President Akiyoshi Yamamura apologized Thursday to passengers and their families over Tuesdays’s botched landing at Hiroshima Airport.

“I apologize from the bottom of my heart to the passengers, their family members and those involved,” Yamamura told reporters gathered at the airport.

One investigator said Wednesday that a downdraft may have caused the wheels of the airplane to clip a communications array moments before landing and running off the runway, injuring more than 20 passengers.

A downward air current may have caused the Airbus A320 to fly too low on its final approach in low visibility due to fog and rain, said the investigator from the Japan Transport Safety Board.
Full Article | The Japan Times
peekay4 is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 19:16
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 723
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Downdraft?
Wind was reported as vrb02kts!!! They have to come up with something more credible than that.
fox niner is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2015, 23:28
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Technically, microbursts can be very localized -- as small as 0.5 miles across -- so it's possible to hit a downdraft on final while airport winds are calm.

However without more data I'm skeptical that this is what happened.
peekay4 is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 07:54
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 71
Posts: 791
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
The name of the PF was "Downdraft" then. Not only the landing gear was clipping the structure, the complete tail was dragged through as well. They touched short of the runway, as one of the pictures clearly shows.

The report will be interesting, hope we will see the FDR.
RetiredF4 is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 09:44
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Now they suspended the Hiroshima flights for safety checks whatever that is. Like the problem is the Hiroshima route.
Honestly, it's people's lives we're talking here. Is this for real??

I always find it funny when I hear people say it will take an accident to make things change when we are not happy with aspects of the profession. Well like I said many times before, I see accidents happening, but not many things change apart from the bonuses of the managers and the cost cutting from the companies.
bringbackthe80s is online now  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 10:19
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Asia
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sadly most of Asia is 30+yrs behind the rest of the civilised world with regard to incident prevention, post accident response/investigation, and general risk management. Regulators and CEOs are more concerned with public image and saving face than they are with attempting to learn from these events in a systematic manner.
777300ER is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 10:39
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Stonecold, you are quite right that monitored approach procedures are NOT used by the majority of airlines. That is exactly the situation the PicMA site is intended to change.

The objective is to make available as much information as possible on the subject, especially from authoritative sources, so that more airlines will use them, and in fact it becomes the default procedure for two-pilot operation, especially in IMC and at night as is suggested by the ICAO/FSF/FAA CFIT training aid and many other sources.
slast is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 11:12
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,866
Received 113 Likes on 66 Posts
Among the possibilities being discussed by the analysts on J TV was the fact that there is a steep gulley/cliff/valley off the east end of the runway and cold air tends to run off the runway and get pulled down there under normal conditions anyway. Add to that this four-minute window of drastic reduction in visibility from 1,700 meters one moment to 750, then 500-300 meters which occurred without warning and almost within seconds, apparently.
jolihokistix is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 12:04
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,510
Received 58 Likes on 37 Posts
Originally Posted by Slast
that monitored approach procedures are NOT used by the majority of airlines. That is exactly the situation the PicMA site is intended to change.
Perhaps there is a reason for this. Certainly, when the approach itself was high-workload, it made sense to have the FO concentrating on it while the Captain monitored him/her until a few hundred above then started looking out in anticipation of taking over or ordering the GA.

But now, with the AP doing CDFAs (I am stunned that a first-world operator such as CA apparently has A320s without GPS fitted), IMO there is no longer any need, as Peekay 4 says earlier.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 13:53
  #78 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 67
Posts: 10,100
Received 57 Likes on 47 Posts
bringbackthe80s
I always find it funny when I hear people say it will take an accident to make things change when we are not happy with aspects of the profession. Well like I said many times before, I see accidents happening, but not many things change apart from the bonuses of the managers and the cost cutting from the companies.
I suggest that prangs change very little - you have to wait until people die. THEN things change, not always fast but they change.
PAXboy is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 14:17
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 723
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If nothing is going to change (within Asiana) then why are we discussing this incident?
Apparently not much has changed, even though people got killed in SFO.
fox niner is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2015, 14:25
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
"No longer any need?"

Hi Capn Bloggs,
IMO there is no longer any need (for the monitored approach procedure)
"no longer" implies that there used to be problems that the procedure addressed, but they have now gone away. But sadly, that clearly is not the case.

It might be true if the ideal world had been reached, where ALL approaches were low workload, ALL crews had great CRM skills, were trained to the best possible standards, were 100% fit and adequately rested, and never omitted checklists items; where ALL aircraft and airports were equipped with 100% reliable vertical and horizontal guidance allowing the autopilot to remain engaged to touchdown in ALL weather conditions.

But the reality is that most accidents occur when pilots make errors trying to deal with the real, non-ideal world, in which the AP is NOT doing CDFAs and a first-world operator such as CA does have A320s without GPS fitted, CRM training can box-ticking, and working conditions can be c**p.

The majority of all Prune posts are complaints about the inadequacies of the real world, not celebrations of how great things are now we've achieved perfection!

So the question is whether we pilots should actually take precautions by using revised procedures which will provide us with better protection? They may not be 100% perfect but they are freely and readily available to deal with the realities....
slast is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.