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Asiana runway excursion in Hiroshima

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Asiana runway excursion in Hiroshima

Old 15th Apr 2015, 14:35
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centaurus

I do not think it is thread drift at all. I've been a strong proponent of excellent cockpit discipline during all approaches, especially the most critical like a NPA at night in wx.

JUST like that Eastern Airlines L1011 in the everglades, everyone got interested in looking at ONE thing instead of the thing THEY WERE DESIGNATED TO BE LOOKING AT.

PM, sorry buddy, you don't get to look out the window until you see the runway lights in periphreal vision. And you have felt that pleasant bump of landing.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 18:12
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what was the experience of these pilots ?
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 18:35
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I presume Asiana do not fly the monitored approach system?
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 19:16
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Back in the Fifties I think, the United States Air Force Instrument Flying School did some research on pilot actions during low visibility approach and landings. I think a Sabre Liner was used in the experiments.

Many approaches were flown and recorded. There were a couple of observations recorded that have stood the test of time. One of them included the case where the runway is visually acquired at 500 feet on the ILS when suddenly visual contact is lost due passing low cloud. The tendency is for pilots to keep looking at the same spot on the windscreen where they last spotted the runway.
.....
Very interesting indeed.
Do you happen to have some docs or links to this research?
Thank you for sharing.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 19:31
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Firefly , I think you will find that generally , the concept doesn't exist outside of UK .
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 20:18
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stone cold

We have used monitored approach for many years in the USA. MANY YEARS.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 21:31
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Gets used in Canada at some airlines. But if you have a decent autopilot, is it nearly as necessary. The Pilot monitored approach was most beneficial back in the days of hand flown approaches.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 21:43
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Asiana undershoot Horoshima etc

Did anyone ever investigate the communication standard between instructors and Asian students, in other words, if instruction was given in English, how much of the material was retained by the student pilots to absorb the importance of critical matters concerning flight safety ?
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 21:47
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Lack of piloting skills is a definite problem these days. Whether that came about as deskilling (i.e. skills were there once) or whether the skills never were there in the first place doesn't really matter. The question is how can it be fixed?

Are we going to see much more simulator time, with crews hand flying several hours every month in less predictable scenarios? Didn't airbus suggest changes to sim runs to that effect?

Then ultimately we'd want more hand flying in real life as well, although statistics seem to suggest that may not be a terribly good idea.

It would be good if a more scientific approach was taken to deciding actions and lessons learnt from the spate of recent incidents. As blasphemous as that sounds, serious discussion is required about removing pilots from handling roles. There's no technical reason why airplanes can't fly gate to gate on autopilot, Airbus demonstrated that 20 years ago. The technology has been there for a long time. But that of course is an extremely contentious subject. Nobody wants to see the "avengers" retired... but that may just be the only way forward past the accident free 10m passenger kilometer mark.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 22:06
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The BEA press from a couple of hours ago

Hiroshima Airport (Japan) – 14April 2015

INFORMATION ON 15 AVRIL 2015

The BEA has been informed by its Japanese counterpart, the Japan Transport Safety Board (JTSB), of an accident to anAirbus A320 at Hiroshima Airport (Japan) yesterday at about 20h local time (11h UTC).
The aeroplane, registered HL 7762 and operated by Asiana Airlines, was flying the Seoul (South Korea) – Hiroshima(Japan) route. On board there were 74 passengers and 8 crew members. The aeroplane made a runway excursion during landing. According to the first official report, 28 people were injured, including 2 crew members.
In accordance with international provisions the BEA, representing the State of Design of the aeroplane, is participating in the investigation initiated by the JTSB. A team of 2 investigators, accompanied by 4 technical advisers from Airbus, is leaving for Hiroshima today. The BEA reminds you that all communication on the Safety Investigation is the exclusive responsibility of the JTSB.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 22:20
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Heads Up and Airbus Golden Rules ...

Great post by Centaurus !

One of the Golden Rules of Airbus was "One head up at all times".

When you read the posts till now ... (especially) on final and landing ... they suggest it would be a good idea to add "One head down at all time during landing".

From an investigative point it would be quite interesting to find out if the pilots complied with this Golden Rule.

A basic way to do that would be to introduce video recording ... an already very old and much discussed subject ... but to have a record of a heads-up/down in this case would indeed be quite interesting. There are of course more and different technical solutions for a heads up and down check than video alone ...
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 22:29
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We have used monitored approach for many years in the USA. MANY YEARS.
When the "monitored approach" system of handing control over when becoming visual was first being used, and discussed, by BEA circa. 1960's, we were standing in customs at New York and were approached by an "older" Pan Am skipper, who asked if "you BOAC guys also practiced monitored approaches" and when we said not ( then) he went on to say "Pan Am has always used monitored approaches". We expressed our surprise and he said "yes, I fly, he monitors!"

Said it all.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 01:04
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From an investigative point it would be quite interesting to find out if the pilots complied with this Golden Rule.

A basic way to do that would be to introduce video recording ... an already very old and much discussed subject ...
You are joking?? "Your head, sir was not pointed in the correct spot at the appropriate time; you therefore caused the accident!". I do wonder whether people posting here have any idea what the job entails. My eyes look at a thousand things (or a few things a thousand times) in the space of a couple of hundred feet on final. Video of my head/eyes would be a complete waste of time.

Those Golden Rules are merely good airmanship and commonsense, nothing else.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 01:35
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Images

Good number of photos showing aircraft and ground damage.

Asiana Airlines Aircraft Skids Off Runway On landing At Hiroshima Airport Photos | Getty Images
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 03:22
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Can someone confirm for me that there's no ILS on that Runway (28) but there is an ILS on Runway 10
And if not then what exactly are we looking at with that Antenna Array?
Is it just HIALs ?
And, if there was an ILS on RWY 10, then WTF were they not using it as the active Runway if the wind was ...RJOA 141108Z VRB02KT. And the weather was somewhat marginal.. as one of the guys reported

Last edited by Buttscratcher; 16th Apr 2015 at 03:34.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 04:10
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So what's the bet that the Koreans blame Japanese ATC for not programming RWY10 ILS
Watch this space
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 04:33
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There is no ILS to RWY 28. RNAV/VOR approach has fairly high mins (+1000 feet if memory serves). As to why they flew 28, Japanese ATC will assign a runway to accommodate presumed runway flow at the detriment of other aircraft unless you speak up FIRMLY.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 05:42
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Yup, like anywhere I guess
They expect pilots to be able to actually fly airplanes, so RWY10 should be fine.
But I'm waiting for a slagging match to begin
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 06:46
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Butt,

The localiser antenna is located at the opposite end of the approach RWY so in this case ILS 10 Loc Ant would located at RWY 28 threshold end so it could well be that you are looking at a Localiser Antenna in the pictures.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 07:14
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Inflicted damage to the airplane:

Left hand horizontal stabilizer partly broken off
Right wing flaps partly broken off
Left engine severely damaged
ILS structure curled up around left hand main gear
ILS structure embedded in one of the righthand wing fairings

All of this can be seen by viewing the videos posted here:

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