Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 24th Mar 2015, 21:51
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,286
Received 461 Likes on 289 Posts
Transsonic2000, the profiles are significantly dissimilar.
The AF 447 descended in a stall while this flight displays a ground track and speed indicating descent in forward flight nowhere near a stall airspeed.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 21:58
  #342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: EU
Age: 43
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Normally the altitude selector is set for 1000 ft scale over FL100 so once you turn and pull it it'll initiate a descent. The aircraft will go into Open Descent mode which basically means it'll keep a fixed IAS/Mach and descend with engines in idle.

The procedure calls for increasing speed and thus creating a high rate of descent and also using spd brakes if needed and if possible.

If they for some reason selected FL90 or similar and then became incapacitated they would have descended with a fairly fixed ROD to that level and afterwards the aircraft would have leveled off keeping the same speed...
Founder is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:02
  #343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
For those who say that it should be possible for pilots to don their masks in less than 5 seconds... How about in the event of a windscreen failure? Now you're trying to get that mask on with a massive headwind hitting you, extreme cold, everything blowing around the cockpit, possibly things frosting up from the temperature change... Even assuming that the mask isn't ripped out of your hand by the decompression, I don't think that anyone is going to get one on in 5 seconds.
PN
True, but if that were the case the aircraft would not have descended.
Is the Airbus fitted with ADM ? in which case a descent would have been initiated
fastjet45 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:02
  #344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,561
Received 41 Likes on 20 Posts
Let me correct my initial surmise that the initial impact was the rock face above. It looks more like the crest of the spur.

There seems little vegetation in large dark grey area where the spilled fuel was apparently consumed.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:05
  #345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
German news tonight reported that several Germanwings flights later cancelled because the crews refused to fly. Apparently they were not happy with the state of the aircraft. The plane that went down today is said to have been delayed due to a technical reason (not reported which) yesterday.
PassengerDan is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:12
  #346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the hypothesis of an explosive decompression in witch the pilots did the first steps and somehow didn't put the masks or the masks didn't work is the more plausible.

The first rough procedures in case of emergency descend, after putting the masks on is:
- ALT turn (descend) and PULL
- HDG turn and PULL
- SPD PULL
(followed by speedbreaks and refinement of the knobs)

It would justify the steady descend and speed. But why didn't the heading change? And while the PF did this, the PNF should be setting 7700 and calling Mayday. Something more must've happened...
anashimmy is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:16
  #347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Washstate
Age: 79
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lightbulb helicopter and landing

CNN is reporting that helicopters have been unable to land at the crash site, yet they've recovered the FDR?

Sounds almost impossible to me.
Uhhh ever hear of a harness and cable used for search and rescue ? works both ways
SAMPUBLIUS is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:17
  #348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Universe
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@Company_Man: see posts earlier. Just some minor issue it was grounded for. No need to speculate wildly.
dicks-airbus is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:18
  #349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Envelope Protection

Allow me a moments speculation with a purpose: Crew incapacitation after depressurization.
Airbus hypothesis of the late '70s was that machinery was able to provide 'protections' that would help avoid aerodynamic stalls and other 'edge of the envelope' flight conditions. These protections have undoubtedly contributed to the industry wide massive increase in safety we've enjoyed.
Today the Aircraft (a bunch of related, communicating systems) 'knows' the cabin is rapidly climbing, the crew hasn't touched anything on the MCP for many seconds, perhaps the Master Warning hasn't been acknowledged.
It also knows where the Terrain is, what the MSA is, and the direction to lower terrain. It's capable of maintaining a safe flying speed if thrust is set to idle (spoilers.. not yet in the FBW logic?)
My point is, extending the established protections this year we could create a "Hypoxia" protection where the aircraft could fly itself if necessary with an unconscious crew to a safe altitude, equalize the cabin and fly away from terrain conflicts. All without having to reach up and kill 2 ADIRUs..
neilki is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:24
  #350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have a question for those in the know;

Why with this accident, is the aircraft so destroyed, the debris so small? Yet other accidents, where the aircraft came down from crusing altitude (MH17, Lockerbie).. was the wreckage much larger and recognisable?
Although I am not in the know, the answer seems fairly obvious - it slammed into the mountain at high velocity, according to various graphs posted in this thread which show a severe drop in altitude but almost no drop in speed.
PassengerDan is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:25
  #351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Found in Toronto
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Return 2 Stand
I have a question for those in the know;

Why with this accident, is the aircraft so destroyed, the debris so small? Yet other accidents, where the aircraft came down from crusing altitude (MH17, Lockerbie).. was the wreckage much larger and recognisable?
Those aircraft broke up in flight which results in low speed impact with the ground. This aircraft impacted in one piece at high speed.
Lost in Saigon is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:25
  #352 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FR
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by log0008
I think the strangest thing about all the major accidents over the last 13 months have occurred at cruise level, what has always been seen as the safest part of flight
Ahem... all of them, really?
16 crashes over the last 13 months as per AVH.
7 events initiated during cruise (including one A/C shot down)
9 events initiated during T/O, Climb, Approach or Landing
AlphaZuluRomeo is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:26
  #353 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re crew unhappy with state of the aircraft - I heard this reported on the main news programme (Tagesschau), not Spiegel Online.
PassengerDan is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:27
  #354 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,994
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
I've said it on page 4 and I'll say it again:-

Normal electrical power appears to have been working as the transponder and associated ADSB was on
No emergency 7700 set
No Mayday call
374 kts GS at impact suggests around 330 Kts IAS
3,500 fpm descent indicates an open descent with speedbrakes.

So, a decompression event occurred at FL380, the crew started the Aircraft down but then somehow ( Oxy system failed, injured etc ) became incapacitated and the Aircraft continued until it flew into the ground.
ACMS is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:30
  #355 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Miles from where I want to be.
Age: 39
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
At a time when more flights are flown than ever before I don't see any increase in hypoxia related airline incidents. We've had Helios and Payne Stewart. That's about it. Kalitta had a near hit with a 747 a good few years back. Hypoxia is still the cause of very few accidents.
INeedTheFull90 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:31
  #356 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: France
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Direct track

The FPL published by Heathrowairport is consistent with the track on FR24.
It is interesting to observe the track on FR24 when the aircraft reaches the French coast. At that time the traffic is not important and I believe that the ATC gave a direct course as a shortcut. A classical way of control. The plane was on the UN870 between ROTIS and MAXIR at 380 and has likely received a direct course to OKTET or IRMAR (44.80 6.79 ). This is the latest waypoint of the French FIR. The direct course is a 25 degree course. If you draw a line from the position where the aircraft initiated a left turn you can easily see that. This track is exactly the one that brought the aircraft to the crash site. Shortly after initiating this left turn the aircraft started to descent but kept its initial heading until the end of the flight.
Squawk_ident is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:33
  #357 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
hypoxia

@INeedTheFull90 in the US we've had several high profile GA accidents attributed to Hypoxia in the last 12 months. It's getting attention from the FAA. GA manufacturers are implementing Hypoxia/Auto Descent modes..
neilki is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:36
  #358 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: French Riviera
Age: 50
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AoA ?

A double AoA blocked probes ? OEB RED in place at the moment on this ...
arc-en-ciel is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:38
  #359 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Solar system
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have not seen this mentioned before, so I'll just throw it out here

in 2010 there was an incident involving airbus 319, germanwings airlines.

On 19 December 2010 the Airbus A319 coming from Vienna, Austria, was on
approach to Köln/Bonn Airport, Germany. Turning on to the base leg the two pilots
noticed an abnormal smell. A short time later during intercept of the extended centre
line, both pilots noticed an adverse effect on their physical and cognitive
performance. They donned their oxygen masks and declared emergency. The Pilot in
Command (PIC) remained able to steer the airplane. The co-pilot felt he could no
longer perform his tasks in the cockpit without restrictions. After the landing and
having reached the parking position, both pilots sought medical treatment. Whereas
the PIC could resume his duties after four days, the co-pilot remained unfit to fly until
10 July 2011. The technical inspection of the aircraft did not reveal any indication of a
technical malfunction.

http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...ublicationFile
par2005 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2015, 22:39
  #360 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,994
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
No, there is a work around fix for that problem if it happens.
The crew would have had ample opportunity to call ATC with the problem if it was AOA induced descent.
The fact that not one word was said for 8 mins of high speed descent or 7700 set clearly means the crew were incapacitated.
ACMS is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.