Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
Transsonic2000, the profiles are significantly dissimilar.
The AF 447 descended in a stall while this flight displays a ground track and speed indicating descent in forward flight nowhere near a stall airspeed.
The AF 447 descended in a stall while this flight displays a ground track and speed indicating descent in forward flight nowhere near a stall airspeed.
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Normally the altitude selector is set for 1000 ft scale over FL100 so once you turn and pull it it'll initiate a descent. The aircraft will go into Open Descent mode which basically means it'll keep a fixed IAS/Mach and descend with engines in idle.
The procedure calls for increasing speed and thus creating a high rate of descent and also using spd brakes if needed and if possible.
If they for some reason selected FL90 or similar and then became incapacitated they would have descended with a fairly fixed ROD to that level and afterwards the aircraft would have leveled off keeping the same speed...
The procedure calls for increasing speed and thus creating a high rate of descent and also using spd brakes if needed and if possible.
If they for some reason selected FL90 or similar and then became incapacitated they would have descended with a fairly fixed ROD to that level and afterwards the aircraft would have leveled off keeping the same speed...
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Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
For those who say that it should be possible for pilots to don their masks in less than 5 seconds... How about in the event of a windscreen failure? Now you're trying to get that mask on with a massive headwind hitting you, extreme cold, everything blowing around the cockpit, possibly things frosting up from the temperature change... Even assuming that the mask isn't ripped out of your hand by the decompression, I don't think that anyone is going to get one on in 5 seconds.
For those who say that it should be possible for pilots to don their masks in less than 5 seconds... How about in the event of a windscreen failure? Now you're trying to get that mask on with a massive headwind hitting you, extreme cold, everything blowing around the cockpit, possibly things frosting up from the temperature change... Even assuming that the mask isn't ripped out of your hand by the decompression, I don't think that anyone is going to get one on in 5 seconds.
PN
True, but if that were the case the aircraft would not have descended.
True, but if that were the case the aircraft would not have descended.
Let me correct my initial surmise that the initial impact was the rock face above. It looks more like the crest of the spur.
There seems little vegetation in large dark grey area where the spilled fuel was apparently consumed.
There seems little vegetation in large dark grey area where the spilled fuel was apparently consumed.
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German news tonight reported that several Germanwings flights later cancelled because the crews refused to fly. Apparently they were not happy with the state of the aircraft. The plane that went down today is said to have been delayed due to a technical reason (not reported which) yesterday.
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I think the hypothesis of an explosive decompression in witch the pilots did the first steps and somehow didn't put the masks or the masks didn't work is the more plausible.
The first rough procedures in case of emergency descend, after putting the masks on is:
- ALT turn (descend) and PULL
- HDG turn and PULL
- SPD PULL
(followed by speedbreaks and refinement of the knobs)
It would justify the steady descend and speed. But why didn't the heading change? And while the PF did this, the PNF should be setting 7700 and calling Mayday. Something more must've happened...
The first rough procedures in case of emergency descend, after putting the masks on is:
- ALT turn (descend) and PULL
- HDG turn and PULL
- SPD PULL
(followed by speedbreaks and refinement of the knobs)
It would justify the steady descend and speed. But why didn't the heading change? And while the PF did this, the PNF should be setting 7700 and calling Mayday. Something more must've happened...
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helicopter and landing
CNN is reporting that helicopters have been unable to land at the crash site, yet they've recovered the FDR?
Sounds almost impossible to me.
Sounds almost impossible to me.
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Envelope Protection
Allow me a moments speculation with a purpose: Crew incapacitation after depressurization.
Airbus hypothesis of the late '70s was that machinery was able to provide 'protections' that would help avoid aerodynamic stalls and other 'edge of the envelope' flight conditions. These protections have undoubtedly contributed to the industry wide massive increase in safety we've enjoyed.
Today the Aircraft (a bunch of related, communicating systems) 'knows' the cabin is rapidly climbing, the crew hasn't touched anything on the MCP for many seconds, perhaps the Master Warning hasn't been acknowledged.
It also knows where the Terrain is, what the MSA is, and the direction to lower terrain. It's capable of maintaining a safe flying speed if thrust is set to idle (spoilers.. not yet in the FBW logic?)
My point is, extending the established protections this year we could create a "Hypoxia" protection where the aircraft could fly itself if necessary with an unconscious crew to a safe altitude, equalize the cabin and fly away from terrain conflicts. All without having to reach up and kill 2 ADIRUs..
Airbus hypothesis of the late '70s was that machinery was able to provide 'protections' that would help avoid aerodynamic stalls and other 'edge of the envelope' flight conditions. These protections have undoubtedly contributed to the industry wide massive increase in safety we've enjoyed.
Today the Aircraft (a bunch of related, communicating systems) 'knows' the cabin is rapidly climbing, the crew hasn't touched anything on the MCP for many seconds, perhaps the Master Warning hasn't been acknowledged.
It also knows where the Terrain is, what the MSA is, and the direction to lower terrain. It's capable of maintaining a safe flying speed if thrust is set to idle (spoilers.. not yet in the FBW logic?)
My point is, extending the established protections this year we could create a "Hypoxia" protection where the aircraft could fly itself if necessary with an unconscious crew to a safe altitude, equalize the cabin and fly away from terrain conflicts. All without having to reach up and kill 2 ADIRUs..
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I have a question for those in the know;
Why with this accident, is the aircraft so destroyed, the debris so small? Yet other accidents, where the aircraft came down from crusing altitude (MH17, Lockerbie).. was the wreckage much larger and recognisable?
Why with this accident, is the aircraft so destroyed, the debris so small? Yet other accidents, where the aircraft came down from crusing altitude (MH17, Lockerbie).. was the wreckage much larger and recognisable?
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Those aircraft broke up in flight which results in low speed impact with the ground. This aircraft impacted in one piece at high speed.
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16 crashes over the last 13 months as per AVH.
7 events initiated during cruise (including one A/C shot down)
9 events initiated during T/O, Climb, Approach or Landing
I've said it on page 4 and I'll say it again:-
Normal electrical power appears to have been working as the transponder and associated ADSB was on
No emergency 7700 set
No Mayday call
374 kts GS at impact suggests around 330 Kts IAS
3,500 fpm descent indicates an open descent with speedbrakes.
So, a decompression event occurred at FL380, the crew started the Aircraft down but then somehow ( Oxy system failed, injured etc ) became incapacitated and the Aircraft continued until it flew into the ground.
Normal electrical power appears to have been working as the transponder and associated ADSB was on
No emergency 7700 set
No Mayday call
374 kts GS at impact suggests around 330 Kts IAS
3,500 fpm descent indicates an open descent with speedbrakes.
So, a decompression event occurred at FL380, the crew started the Aircraft down but then somehow ( Oxy system failed, injured etc ) became incapacitated and the Aircraft continued until it flew into the ground.
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At a time when more flights are flown than ever before I don't see any increase in hypoxia related airline incidents. We've had Helios and Payne Stewart. That's about it. Kalitta had a near hit with a 747 a good few years back. Hypoxia is still the cause of very few accidents.
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Direct track
The FPL published by Heathrowairport is consistent with the track on FR24.
It is interesting to observe the track on FR24 when the aircraft reaches the French coast. At that time the traffic is not important and I believe that the ATC gave a direct course as a shortcut. A classical way of control. The plane was on the UN870 between ROTIS and MAXIR at 380 and has likely received a direct course to OKTET or IRMAR (44.80 6.79 ). This is the latest waypoint of the French FIR. The direct course is a 25 degree course. If you draw a line from the position where the aircraft initiated a left turn you can easily see that. This track is exactly the one that brought the aircraft to the crash site. Shortly after initiating this left turn the aircraft started to descent but kept its initial heading until the end of the flight.
It is interesting to observe the track on FR24 when the aircraft reaches the French coast. At that time the traffic is not important and I believe that the ATC gave a direct course as a shortcut. A classical way of control. The plane was on the UN870 between ROTIS and MAXIR at 380 and has likely received a direct course to OKTET or IRMAR (44.80 6.79 ). This is the latest waypoint of the French FIR. The direct course is a 25 degree course. If you draw a line from the position where the aircraft initiated a left turn you can easily see that. This track is exactly the one that brought the aircraft to the crash site. Shortly after initiating this left turn the aircraft started to descent but kept its initial heading until the end of the flight.
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hypoxia
@INeedTheFull90 in the US we've had several high profile GA accidents attributed to Hypoxia in the last 12 months. It's getting attention from the FAA. GA manufacturers are implementing Hypoxia/Auto Descent modes..
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I have not seen this mentioned before, so I'll just throw it out here
in 2010 there was an incident involving airbus 319, germanwings airlines.
On 19 December 2010 the Airbus A319 coming from Vienna, Austria, was on
approach to Köln/Bonn Airport, Germany. Turning on to the base leg the two pilots
noticed an abnormal smell. A short time later during intercept of the extended centre
line, both pilots noticed an adverse effect on their physical and cognitive
performance. They donned their oxygen masks and declared emergency. The Pilot in
Command (PIC) remained able to steer the airplane. The co-pilot felt he could no
longer perform his tasks in the cockpit without restrictions. After the landing and
having reached the parking position, both pilots sought medical treatment. Whereas
the PIC could resume his duties after four days, the co-pilot remained unfit to fly until
10 July 2011. The technical inspection of the aircraft did not reveal any indication of a
technical malfunction.
http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...ublicationFile
in 2010 there was an incident involving airbus 319, germanwings airlines.
On 19 December 2010 the Airbus A319 coming from Vienna, Austria, was on
approach to Köln/Bonn Airport, Germany. Turning on to the base leg the two pilots
noticed an abnormal smell. A short time later during intercept of the extended centre
line, both pilots noticed an adverse effect on their physical and cognitive
performance. They donned their oxygen masks and declared emergency. The Pilot in
Command (PIC) remained able to steer the airplane. The co-pilot felt he could no
longer perform his tasks in the cockpit without restrictions. After the landing and
having reached the parking position, both pilots sought medical treatment. Whereas
the PIC could resume his duties after four days, the co-pilot remained unfit to fly until
10 July 2011. The technical inspection of the aircraft did not reveal any indication of a
technical malfunction.
http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...ublicationFile
No, there is a work around fix for that problem if it happens.
The crew would have had ample opportunity to call ATC with the problem if it was AOA induced descent.
The fact that not one word was said for 8 mins of high speed descent or 7700 set clearly means the crew were incapacitated.
The crew would have had ample opportunity to call ATC with the problem if it was AOA induced descent.
The fact that not one word was said for 8 mins of high speed descent or 7700 set clearly means the crew were incapacitated.
