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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 30th Dec 2014, 16:55
  #581 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
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how can we be sure that the pilot requested change in altitude to avoid weather? He asked to deviate left of the path and requested an altitude change at the same time. IMO the pilot would have asked for immediate climb if he felt that the aircraft was in danger and could be saved by climbing..
The key here was that he supposedly asked for a deviation and FL change. If I need a deviation, I will take it and notify ATC after the fact. No different for a FL change; if I deem it necessary, I can invoke the magic words and just do it. Asking implies something desired rather than necessary.

The issue here is assertion of authority, which ultimately rests with the PIC. Working with/complying with ATC is part of the job in normal circumstances as it should be. When things are abnormal, I am responsible and will do what it takes to ensure that I get somewhere safely. In the end, it's my airplane.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:12
  #582 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
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Originally Posted by mseyfang View Post
The key here was that he supposedly asked for a deviation and FL change. If I need a deviation, I will take it and notify ATC after the fact. No different for a FL change; if I deem it necessary, I can invoke the magic words and just do it. Asking implies something desired rather than necessary.

The issue here is assertion of authority, which ultimately rests with the PIC. Working with/complying with ATC is part of the job in normal circumstances as it should be. When things are abnormal, I am responsible and will do what it takes to ensure that I get somewhere safely. In the end, it's my airplane.
Since the pilot asked for a change in flightpath can it be assumed that the pilot didn't realize the danger the TS posed?
I agree with the fact that the PIC has the right to make decisions in order to save the aircraft but the PM needs to notify the atc before the decision is carried out or in adequate time. Otherwise their could be risk to other nearby planes.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:22
  #583 (permalink)  
 
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I find it "amazing" how this discussion has gone !

We "potentially" have an accident with a "possible primary" factor of "weather".
And here, people are discussing "how do we track a downed aircraft" and "how do we get realtime cockpit recordings".

Have you guys missed the point here ????

Just in case you've "missed it".... aircraft are suppose to fly. That's what they do best. And that's what people in this profession aim to do.

Personally (in private aviation at least) we don't mind p*ssing off a passenger in order that we ALL stay safe. That may mean we don't go. We deviate or we use an alternate.

In this case (as far as we know) we have a situation that developed. Why was it allowed to develop....and result in this accident ?
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:23
  #584 (permalink)  
 
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Since the pilot asked for a change in flightpath can it be assumed that the pilot didn't realize the danger the TS posed?
Nothing can be assumed. And we don't know the TS posed any real danger. (Although it probably will turn out to be related, we don't know that yet). It likely was a routine request for deviating left (west) around the cell being painted. Happens all the time, everywhere.

I agree with the fact that the PIC has the right to make decisions in order to save the aircraft but the PM needs to notify the atc before the decision is carried out or in adequate time. Otherwise their could be risk to other nearby planes.
Of course, but it doesn't always work that way. If ATC won't/can't give you what you need when you need it, execute your plan, advise ATC/declare an emergency, then seek forgiveness, preferably once you're on the ground, safe and sound, with your hand wrapped around an adult beverage.

If you crash, the controller likely will feel really bad. You won't feel a thing.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:30
  #585 (permalink)  
 
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Radar on the airplane is used to see weather and sometimes ground for navigation many years ago. It is not designed for finding other airplanes.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:37
  #586 (permalink)  
 
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Back to Basics

Not inferring anything about cause of crash but we as aviators in the industry have to take a look at ourselves and our standards again. Experience cannot be Taught. Airlines in their rush to expand and reduce cost putting inexperienced crews in advanced aircraft with little relevant experience and training. Basic aerodynamics is lost and aircraft manuals don't contain enough in depth information either because manufacturers are cutting cost, or they think it is not necessary for pilots to know, or they think airlines won't put a novice 1000 hour pilot in a long haul big jet or a combination of all these factors. What controls speed during different stages of flight? Ask and see what answers you will get. It is a sad day. Out climbing a tropical thunderstorm? For those of us who have been flying in the tropics seeing these storm brewing and mushrooming in minutes before our eyes, Buffet onset boundary, etc. the real meaning of Maximum, Recommend and Optimum altitudes, and when to declare mayday or pan pan if needed? Flying into a super cell maybe one of them? We in the industry have a whole lot of questions to ask ourselves and need to start now or we will be seeing more disasters to come. Again not trying to infer anything. Just food for thought as we go out to fly today. Rest in Peace all those lost flying the blue skies. Hope better and safer days come.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:39
  #587 (permalink)  
 
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This is not to make any comment on this flight as we don't know the facts yet but another option as well as deviation off track is a timely 180 degree turn and return to the departure field or divert.

And yet another option is not to depart at all.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 17:47
  #588 (permalink)  
 
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Has anyone seen the exact quote of the deviation request?

Different news sites portray it in different ways, nothing new there, but they range from a routine request to "avoid clouds" to insinuating that ATC is partially blame for not allowing a deviation to avoid immediate danger.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 18:19
  #589 (permalink)  
 
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The wreckage of AirAsia’s missing Airbus passenger jet had in fact been discovered more than 36 hours earlier when Mohammed Taha, a 38-year-old fisherman, saw red and white metal objects in the water but dismissed them as ocean junk.

Only when Mr Taha returned to his village on Monday night did he understand the grim significance of what he had seen and report it to police. An aerial search was launched at first light and by 8am, that unexplained debris had been found.
First came reports that objects resembling a plane’s door and emergency exit had been spotted, then that a plane-shaped “shadow” had been seen under the surface of the water.
Finally came the macabre news that bodies had also been sighted, in waters about 80 to 100 feet deep, some six miles from Flight QZ8501’s last known location.
AirAsia Flight QZ8501: relatives plunged into mourning as graphic images of bodies confirm fate - Telegraph

It was only 6 miles from the airplane's last known location and the search authorities only searched there because a fisherman made a report?

This does not sound like a competent search organization--where a standard search process would start at the last known location and expand outward. [I had been expecting that the airplane would be found something like 50+ miles away--as one can understand it takes a long time to search large areas]
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 18:20
  #590 (permalink)  
 
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I operate around SEA including this particular neck of the woods in my shiny bizjet, and I have found that on a moonless night, my FLIR (Enhanced Vision System) has shown me a couple CB top that I would otherwise have missed with just the WX radar and the eyeball...

Something to think about when the airlines spec out the next generation of Buses and Boeings.... I have heard that CX considered it, and decided against installing EVS for budget reasons, relying instead on the 3D WX-radar with enhanced predictive features....
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 18:28
  #591 (permalink)  
 
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Hold for Cb?

@NAROBS
While Holding may help traffic separation, note that a hold takes place essentially over the ground, while a Cb is in a moving airmass. I'm not entirely convinced the combination of those 2 factors is healthy...
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 18:41
  #592 (permalink)  
 
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With the exception of VDL Mode 4 (which I dont think is in common use?) what systems are there that provide a means for the pilot of one aircraft to be aware of the position of others aircraft near his?
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 18:54
  #593 (permalink)  
 
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It was only 6 miles from the airplane's last known location and the search authorities only searched there because a fisherman made a report?

This does not sound like a competent search organization--where a standard search process would start at the last known location and expand outward. [I had been expecting that the airplane would be found something like 50+ miles away--as one can understand it takes a long time to search large areas]
If we want to lambast the search effort, let's do a proper job of it. I have been wrestling with this image of the "search area" for the last two days, and this was compounded by the news channels telling us yesterday that the search area was being expanded!


But out of politeness, I held my tongue.

I hope this map was just a product of the public relations department and was not representative of where they were really deploying assets.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 18:59
  #594 (permalink)  
 
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JamesGV:
Okay.... no takers on "getting this conversation back on track" !
YES! Please enlighten us, from the top of your private flying experience! Please show us how to "get this conversation back on track"!
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 19:00
  #595 (permalink)  
 
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But out of politeness, I held my tongue.
With all due respect...

Suffice it to say, this was a very professional search done competently by the relevant authorities.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 19:03
  #596 (permalink)  
 
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With the exception of VDL Mode 4 (which I dont think is in common use?) what systems are there that provide a means for the pilot of one aircraft to be aware of the position of others aircraft near his?
TCAS and ADS-B.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 19:08
  #597 (permalink)  
 
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er...

See above.

But another private flyer has been deleted.

Seriously, is this conversation about the accident and how to avoid such ?

EVS and FLIR
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 19:08
  #598 (permalink)  
 
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Airlines in their rush to expand and reduce cost putting inexperienced crews in advanced aircraft with little relevant experience and training.
When I started out it was common to have a total of 25,000 hours plus of experience in the flight deck.

I wonder what the average experience is in the modern flight deck?

Whilst experience doesn't necessarily relate to competence, there must be some correlation.

It is appreciated that a man may have 25 years' experience rather than 1 years' experience 25 times, but the question in modern air travel still remains - airlines in their rush to expand and reduce cost put relatively inexperienced crews, with minimum training and real experience, in advanced aircraft in all weathers Worldwide.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 19:10
  #599 (permalink)  
 
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AirAsia pilot was "one of the best":

AirAsia pilot one of military academy?s best graduates | The Jakarta Post
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 19:34
  #600 (permalink)  
 
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Aviation Quote...


There is no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime.
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