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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 10th Feb 2015, 18:26
  #3161 (permalink)  
 
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They are certainly taking a while to go from the initial ( & probably ill-advised) revelations, to coming up with some tentative explanation of WTHIH (old readers of Flight International will know that one. . .What the Hell is happening )

Perhaps they too, are slightly "unclear" of what/how/why an Airbus performs its "Magic" . . . . . .
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 18:28
  #3162 (permalink)  
 
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FireFlyBob
The fact is that oldies that have done lots of flying on older generation types are "hard wired" neurologically for manual flying (they may be a bit rusty but they can confidently hand fly). New pilots do not have those skills to fall back on.
How do you define "oldies"?
Apparently 20'000 hours did not help in this incident:

AirAsia

Captain (53)
Air Force veteran, was very experienced, with around 20,000 flying hours under his belt including 6,000 on AirAsia's A320.

FO (46)
2,000+ hours with the carrier.

AF447
Captain (58)
Experience:
total: 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 as Captain
hours on type: 1,747 all as Captain

FO1
total: 6,547 flying hours
on type: 4,479 flying hours

FO2
total: 2,936 flying hours
on type: 807 flying hours
Glider pilot
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 21:16
  #3163 (permalink)  
 
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How do you define "oldies"?
Apparently 20'000 hours did not help in this incident:
xcitation, I didn't say oldies were infallible.

In the case of AF447 the Commander was not on the flight deck and/or at the controls when the event started to materialise.

In the case of AirAsia it would be interesting to know how much of that 20,000 hours was done on large jet transports with round dials, basic autopilot with no auto throttle and no FMC etc.

Perhaps "oldies" was an inappropriate term to use but the point I am making is that those who have done a lot of hand flying basic jets with minimal automation (even if a bit out of practice) are in a better position to maintain safe control when the automation decides to be not available.

Years ago we would think nothing about despatching with an inoperative autopilot because we knew we could competently hand fly at cruise levels.
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 21:31
  #3164 (permalink)  
 
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fireflybob

"Years ago we would think nothing about despatching with an inoperative autopilot because we knew we could competently hand fly at cruise levels."

Exactly! Character building stuff and it kept us awake. Well most of us anyway, in remote areas. South Atlantic comes to mind. Pre RVSM of course.

If you can hand fly at cruise accurately, you can normally do what you needed to do with the a/c hand flying. Got quite good on raw information too as the FD wasn't all that helpful in pitch at cruise altitude, IIRC.
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 22:30
  #3165 (permalink)  
 
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I would like to know if anyone has ever had a checkride in a sim (or plane) that involved 5 minutes of straight and level hand flying at MAA or service ceiling?
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 22:54
  #3166 (permalink)  
 
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Arée, a next post that will get deleted.

I am a pilot.
Flew light to medium, even have a BFM (Basic Fighter Man) hr in an F-16B, and yes we pulled the whole 9G's a couple of times.

No, all those "Thousands of hrs" airline pilots do not need a single extra hr in a simm. NOT a single hr.

They need "REAL" seat time in a Cessna 152, a Pitts, or a Cap10.

They "need" some "REAL" and "DIE HARD" stalls to cope with, not in any simm at all, but in real life.

Where their bottoms come loose from the seat.
Where the break drops the nose deep and the wings fall ways from you.

I'v had "real" pilots turn white as paper.

I'v had guys shouting and screaming; sweating and strugling.

All they ever did was; "Stay away, stay away, recover before the stall."

Well, I fear the results speak for themselves.

And then do a full deep stall in a twin.
And teach them to cartwheel out of the stall. Full rudder and Full power on one, chop the power on the second, and cartwheel overhead out of the stall.

Then you will have pilots that start to understand stalls.

You might see some pilots turned WHITE, but you"ll have better pilots.

You can put them in a simm for weeks, nothing will ever change.
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 22:58
  #3167 (permalink)  
 
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You all may want to have a look at this. It ain't pretty to watch but this is what can happen. Look and let's learn. Borrowed from another thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-hb...ature=youtu.be

Apologizes to those who have seen it.

Last edited by Sop_Monkey; 10th Feb 2015 at 23:13.
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Old 10th Feb 2015, 23:34
  #3168 (permalink)  
 
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In the case of AF447 the Commander was not on the flight deck and/or at the controls when the event started to materialise.
I take your point about the lack of recent manual flying. This over automation issue has more to it as it affects pilots across a wide range of experience. That said the Captain is the highest authority on the a/c and some say his decision of going on rest and putting control in the hands of least experienced during penetration of CB was a factor. When he returned why did he not take control and instead opted to make a few comments on the warnings? Pitch and power eluded them all for 4 minutes, yet all of them knew how to fly. Notably it was the glider man who was the one pulling back the whole time.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 00:12
  #3169 (permalink)  
 
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response to Xcitation

maybe the glider guy thought they were in a thermal?
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 00:26
  #3170 (permalink)  
 
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F/O formally identified

First Officer Remi Emmanuel Plesel has been formally identified on February 10th.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 00:41
  #3171 (permalink)  
 
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I still can't accept that an ex-airforce fighter pilot has 20,000 hours. What age did he join the airline and how many hours did he have when he left the airforce? My point being he may not have been as experienced as others are suggesting. If he did have that many hours at age 53 after an airforce career then he was flying a lot of hours every year.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 00:41
  #3172 (permalink)  
 
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vilters

why would I put the gear down? and the other things?

And while banking the airplane may bring the nose down, I have never heard it called a cartwheel.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 00:59
  #3173 (permalink)  
 
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The engines are under the wing, under the center of mass and under the center of lift. Pushing the power up creates a momentum that pushes the nose up.

Pushing power up pushes the nose up, and at the same time you have to push nose down to break the stall. Result?? Nothing changes. The engine power pushes nose up and you push nose down. => You stay in the deep stall.

Chopping the power to idle creates the opposite momentum and drops the nose, helping the stick nose down momentum around the center of mass and the center of lift.

Lowering the gear adds drag below the center of mass and center of lift, and lowers the nose.

ALL tools are good tools to drop the nose.

Banking yes, helping the bank with power on one side, yes.

On realy large planes carefull with rudder, as the fuselage and tail are not build for torsional loads.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 01:05
  #3174 (permalink)  
 
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Vilters

while some of this is true, you are making things harder than you need to.

Pushing forward on the control stick, and with the airbus, trimming forward too should be enough.

While engines can bring the nose up, having the engines providing thrust would allow for a better acceleration.


And while the gear may shift things, the drag later on would reduce acceleration.

Stick forward, trim forward, bank if you can't get the nose down, but all the other stuff makes a recovery difficult on the other side.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 01:12
  #3175 (permalink)  
 
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You talk about banking.
In a fully developped deep stall, you have no aileron control any more, no rudder or elevator control any more.

All you have left is use assymetrical trust to get the nose to turn, bank, and eventually drop. Usually one wing unstalls first, and you flip past 90° of bank (the cartwheeling part) but you have the nose down.

Regain speed, and regain air movement over you controls.

Regaining speed is regaining airflow over the control surfaces, speed is life.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 01:25
  #3176 (permalink)  
 
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@skyhighfallguy

Your comments are correct. And an unstallable aircraft should not stall. But.

But see?
You are already thinking about the recovery part, before you got unstalled.

FIRST get the nose down. FIRST break the stall.

In a fully developped deep stall, you are dropping like a stone in this thin air, there is little time.

FULL nose down on the stick, wait, then nose down on the trim, wait, but not too long, then chop power, then drop gear, there is little time left by now, and you still have to start the recovery part....and you need altitude for that too.

If nothing helps? Asymetrical power and prepare for (perhaps) a flip/cartwheel, when one wing stalls unstalls before the other wing, perhaps even passing inverted.

The wing drop/flip part is clearly visible in the other video about the ATR. The assymetrical stall roll rate is "fast", and you have NO airspeed over your control surfaces yet to counter it. You have to wait for the speed to come back before you can start regaining control of the roll rate and the nose.

Last edited by Vilters; 11th Feb 2015 at 01:36.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 01:45
  #3177 (permalink)  
 
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The unstallable stall

Vilters, I don't mean to challenge you, rather to note there has been some lengthy previous conversation--correction--broadsides right here regarding whether a deep stall of long duration was even possible not to mention probable. If, ensconced as many forum readers are in the quiet comfort of their homes, with either a hot or cold tall one within arms reach, such a conversation could consume group minutes or in some cases hours, not the paltry time available to the pilots in question.

>You are already thinking about the recovery part, before you got unstalled....

Exactly the emphasis one is taught in the present day.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 02:11
  #3178 (permalink)  
 
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If nothing helps? Asymetrical power and prepare for (perhaps) a flip/cartwheel, when one wing stalls unstalls before the other wing, perhaps even passing inverted.
Yaw rates in a stalled jet aircraft are extremely hazardous. Just asking for a spin.
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 02:36
  #3179 (permalink)  
 
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Lookleft
I still can't accept that an ex-airforce fighter pilot has 20,000 hours. What age did he join the airline and how many hours did he have when he left the airforce? My point being he may not have been as experienced as others are suggesting. If he did have that many hours at age 53 after an airforce career then he was flying a lot of hours every year.
Sounds like he had to work his way up in both the Air Force and Airlines. No fast track Academy or short cuts.
Iriyanto joined the air force for a 10-year service term, climbing the ranks to first lieutenant flying F-16 and F-5 fighters.
Iriyanto worked for PT Merpati Nusantara Airlines as an instructor for Fokker 27 aircraft (Twin Turbo prop).
He joined AirAsia after his then-employer PT Adam Skyconnection Airlines ceased operations in March 2008 following three plane crashes in a year.
Of his flying hours, 6,053 were with AirAsia.
more than 20,000 flying hours under his belt in a career that spanned three airlines

Iriyanto “is a good flier, procedural, and considered outstanding,” Hadi Tjahjanto, a spokesman for the Indonesian Air Force who trained with Iriyanto, said by phone from Jakarta before the news that debris had been found. “He was classified as a fighter pilot and acted as an interceptor should there be suspicious planes around. So speed in taking action is essential.”
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Old 11th Feb 2015, 06:09
  #3180 (permalink)  
 
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Windshear

I'm confused.

FCOM:

The Flight Augmentation Computers have three main functions:
  • Rudder trim
  • Rudder travel limits
  • Yaw damping inputs
  • Alternate yaw
  • Flight envelope and speed computations
  • Wind shear detection
Can it be said that the FACs rely upon pitot tubes (three of them, but nothing else) to determine the aircraft's airspeed?

Can it be said that in the case of double FAC failure that the aircraft will revert to alternate law -- with reduced protections?

Can it be said that the FACs might interpret (misinterpret) rapid airspeed fluctuations known to be associated with crossing shear layers / windshear, and implement overspeed protection trimming the aircraft nose up?:


Flight crew operating manual(FCOM)and standard procedures
•Until mid 2013, there was only a descending aircraft over speed prevention checklist That checklist included disconnecting the autopilot and raising the aircraft nose.Use of that checklist in the cruise was inappropriate because it could result in a significant altitude exceedance at high speed and manually flying the aircraft at high speed and high altitude was not practiced often.
•Airbus published new flight crew operating manual (FCOM) procedures for overspeed prevention and recovery. Both checklists commence with AP (autopilot) :KEEP ON
. A newsletter distributed to company flight crew contained the new overspeed recovery FCOM but not the overspeed prevention FCOM.
•If the autopilot remained engaged during an aircraft overspeed flight envelope speed protection is provided in the relevant AFS modes, resulting in a nose up order within the limit of the autopilot authority to reduce or stop the airspeed increase
Can it be said that once a UAS event is triggered, the AP disconnects but A/THR remains active, the FDs remain active and the FAC / protections remain active (to the extent the FACs have reliable - or unreliable information?)

In the event of rapid transient true overspeed while crossing shear layers associated with thunderstorms, is it reliable to depend upon FACs and pre-programmed overspeed protections? Taken a step further, can perceived overspeed protections affect the SS nose down / manual pitch trim down a pilot might apply?

After entering alternate law, due to UAS prompting dual FAC disagree / failure, at what point does the FAC drop itself out?

Automatic pitch trim stops trimming nose down momentarily at VMO or MMO. This provides a momentary pitch up when high speed stability is active, but automatic trimming will continue if over speed is continued by pilot. An aural "crickets" warning will be heard at VMO plus 4 knots or / MMO plus .006M.
High Speed Stability may or may not be available in alternate law depending on the type of flight control failure.
If a zoom climb/ambient air temperature change/violent updraft, etc., resulted in the aircraft being out of its envelope, in 'approach to stall' does the FAC drop itself out after it has sensed the aircraft approaching a perceived stall speed or does the Augmentation Computer still try to 'help':

The VSW is defined by the top of a red and black strip along the speed scale. It represents the speed corresponding to the stall warning, as computed by the FACs.
When do the FAC / protections cease having any effect on pilot inputs / pilot directions?

Is there any way to turn them off -- if, say, you were already close max alt, nearing coffin corner/impending stall, yet encountering more turbulence/windshear and HAL wanted more nose up?

When the A320 encounters wind condition changes in the cruise similar to shear, the airspeed can increase quite quickly and this is not a rare event on the A320. During flights between Melbourne and Gold Coast/Brisbane airports, this windshear/wind speed change and potential overspeed situation is not uncommon as the aircraft transits the southern jetstream.
AIRBUS SAFETY LIBRARY
II.2 Defining Windshear

Windshear is defined as a sudden change of wind velocity and/or direction.
Windshear occurs in all directions, but for convenience, it is measured along vertical and horizontal axis, thus becoming vertical and horizontal windshear:

Vertical windshear:
−Variations of the horizontal wind component along the vertical axis, resulting in turbulence that may affect the aircraft airspeed when climbing or descending through the windshear layer
−Variations of the wind component of 20 kt per 1000 ft to 30 kt per 1000 ft are typical values, but a vertical windshear may reach up to 10 kt per 100 ft.

Windshear conditions usually are associated with the following weather situations:
•Jet streams
•Mountain waves
•Frontal surfaces
•Thunderstorms and convective clouds
•Microbursts.
Influence of Windshear on Aircraft Performance The flight performance is affected as:
• Headwind gust instantaneously increases the aircraft speed and thus tends to make the aircraft fly above intended path and/or accelerate

• A downdraft affects both the aircraft Angle-Of-Attack (AOA), that increases, and the aircraft path since it makes the aircraft sink

• Tailwind gust instantaneously decreases the aircraft speed and thus tends to make the aircraft fly below intended path and/or decelerate.

Windshears associated to jet streams, mountain waves and frontal surfaces usually occur at altitudes that do not present the same risk than microbursts, which occur closer to the ground.
I don't see thunderstorms there....
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