Thomas cook b757 incident, what a total mess
Rat 5 I completely concur ; however it would appear that the ANC is being overlooked with task saturation - this case would be a good example - Airbus are hammering 'the basics ' which would presumably have been second nature back in ( mine as well ) the day . The horrific AF447 drives Airbus in terms of 'encouraging pilot skills ' but undoubtedly the skill level is globally reducing. Very interesting read in this month's 'Vanity Fair' with ref AF447 and the conclusion is that modern aircraft with highly developed automation are incredibly reliable but when going wrong there is the possibility that the modern pilot does not have the skill set to deal with it. I don't have the answers and don't wish to condemn the modern pilot ; as an industry we have allowed this to happen ( skill level degradation ) in tandem with the automation .We weren't all Chuck Yeagers back in the day but most had the basics of instrument flying. The blame lies in many areas not least the cost imperative so beloved of the LCCs ; although I have to accept that the safety record of the major players ( blue /orange ) are pretty impressive.
cheers
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This was a very unfortunate incident. The individual concerned made a mistake and we can all learn from it. However, spare a thought for his feelings, imagine how you would feel given some of the comments on this thread. He undoubtedly feels bad enough already! Hopefully he has not read some of the uncharitable remarks posted here.
Many years ago an old boss of mine put the following statement in a news letter following a lot of derogatory comments made about another fellow professional who made a mistake "for those of you who think this could not happen to you, it probably will". Incidents and accidents happen to even the best pilots. Learn from their mistakes but don't judge too harshly as one day it could be you!
Many an unblemished career has been left in tatters by one lapse of judgement or mistake, sometimes with terrible consequences. It would be a mistake to think it only happens to bad pilots.That kind of thinking will make you a statistic!
I hope this pilot finds some comfort and support from his more enlightened colleagues. I have found the more enlightened posts on this thread very interesting and informative. Shame about the rest!
Many years ago an old boss of mine put the following statement in a news letter following a lot of derogatory comments made about another fellow professional who made a mistake "for those of you who think this could not happen to you, it probably will". Incidents and accidents happen to even the best pilots. Learn from their mistakes but don't judge too harshly as one day it could be you!
Many an unblemished career has been left in tatters by one lapse of judgement or mistake, sometimes with terrible consequences. It would be a mistake to think it only happens to bad pilots.That kind of thinking will make you a statistic!
I hope this pilot finds some comfort and support from his more enlightened colleagues. I have found the more enlightened posts on this thread very interesting and informative. Shame about the rest!
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Do our (retired?) trainers on this thread now regret all the SIM time spent droning around on LOFT exercises.How many pilots have been offered the option of practicing a manoeuvre;"anything you like,but of course it will be assessed" Er,no thanks.....?
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There for the grace of God go all of us. Have fire-walled the throttles myself on the 757 in the sim, forgetting to click the switches, having been on the Airbus previously. I am sure I am not alone.
Do our (retired?) trainers on this thread now regret all the SIM time spent droning around on LOFT exercises.How many pilots have been offered the option of practicing a manoeuvre;"anything you like,but of course it will be assessed" Er,no thanks.....?
You seem to have a somewhat jaundiced view. Certainly all the trainees I dealt with were often given the opportunity to practise manoeuvres of their own selection when time permitted after the mandatory items had been completed. And certainly in my case such manoeuvres were not assessed.
Believe it or not but quite a few of us trainers did the job because we genuinely wanted to see our fellow colleagues reach the highest standards possible in a friendly and helpful environment.
Look through the FD.
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Good Lord, as an American on a mainly European site is it really true that when you ask if the crew wish to perform additional maneuvers after the boxes have been checked that those maneuvers are graded? As a former and most likely future LCA I find that appalling.
Once a crew has checked their boxes, extra time is for them or myself to look at things we think might be important, not to find an extra way to destroy a career.
Shameful if true. Extra time is just that, extra. A crew that wishes to practice something "just to see" gets to do so, no strings attached.
Once a crew has checked their boxes, extra time is for them or myself to look at things we think might be important, not to find an extra way to destroy a career.
Shameful if true. Extra time is just that, extra. A crew that wishes to practice something "just to see" gets to do so, no strings attached.
the report also raises a fundamental CRM point. On Page 3 it says "... the co-pilot started to action the QRH ........ He also continued to operate the radio". I think that is a bad move and is a recipe for incomplete checklist procedures and possible disaster. To try to action the QRH and deal with ATC at the same time is likely to be a very bad move and so it proved. He was rapidly being overwhelmed.
In my last company, it was SOP that when something went wrong, the call was:
"My aeroplane, My radio and Your checklist".
In my last company, it was SOP that when something went wrong, the call was:
"My aeroplane, My radio and Your checklist".
"My aeroplane, My radio and Your checklist".
That is not necessarily better CRM, not to mention throw in "that switch is in your area of responsibility, turn it off will you?".
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Having flown Airbus and Boeing, one of the things I like on the 'bus, not SOP but very useful when things start to unravel, is the ALT button.
Recognise the approach isn't going to work, press ALT. The a/c levels, brief conversation along the lines of "we're doing a GA, are you ready?" and then off you go.
Obviously only done when the situation permits (not minima) but could save the pension fund! (Also useful on the 4 holer, 2 eng GA).
Unfortunately it won't work on the Boeing below 1,500' and possibly not above?
Recognise the approach isn't going to work, press ALT. The a/c levels, brief conversation along the lines of "we're doing a GA, are you ready?" and then off you go.
Obviously only done when the situation permits (not minima) but could save the pension fund! (Also useful on the 4 holer, 2 eng GA).
Unfortunately it won't work on the Boeing below 1,500' and possibly not above?
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very useful when things start to unravel, is the ALT button......press ALT. The a/c levels
Do you mean the Vertical Speed knob?? Pushing the v/s knob sets v/s to 0 and levels the aircraft....
Pushing the Alt knob will put the aircraft into a managed climb/descent.
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Imagine for a sec it was Asian or East European or South American airline and crew - the sh*t storm would be blasting 25 pages long by now. But as long it was our fella TCX that's a mistake can happen to anyone.. Right?
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Whichever way you slice it this is a poorly skilled Capt having a bad day out with an equally inadequate FO.
There is no way that a 13,000hr Capt with 1400 on type should be thinking "I should be doing something with my thumb..." during a go-around.
There may be many reasons for it but even fluffing an unfamiliar manoeuvre like a 2 engine g/a is no excuse for the litany of operational blunders that followed, nor for the FO to allow them to occur. This all smacks to me of both pilots operating in normal conditions at the limits of their ability and finding that one little upset overturns the whole shebang. I know, I've been there.
My company recognised some time ago - from flight safety reports - that the 2 engine g/a, esp from midway down the 'slope was the most cocked-up manoeuvre simply because it is (was) not practiced regularly, if at all, in the sim. A campaign was instigated to remedy that and afaik the problem was solved.
This incident seems to be a timely reminder to any of us with weak spots in our skills to take a good hard look at ourselves and ensure we get them patched up, and especially for FOs to ensure they have the confidence and skills to back up and support, and in extremis manage a floundering Captain.
It is also a wake-up call to training depts to look at all operational scenarios and ensure that sim training covers these thoroughly in addition to the box ticking.
I feel for the crew, even more for the pax exposed to them but feel sure that with sensitive management these two guys should return to the line much better equipped to do there jobs with confidence. I hope so.
There is no way that a 13,000hr Capt with 1400 on type should be thinking "I should be doing something with my thumb..." during a go-around.
There may be many reasons for it but even fluffing an unfamiliar manoeuvre like a 2 engine g/a is no excuse for the litany of operational blunders that followed, nor for the FO to allow them to occur. This all smacks to me of both pilots operating in normal conditions at the limits of their ability and finding that one little upset overturns the whole shebang. I know, I've been there.
My company recognised some time ago - from flight safety reports - that the 2 engine g/a, esp from midway down the 'slope was the most cocked-up manoeuvre simply because it is (was) not practiced regularly, if at all, in the sim. A campaign was instigated to remedy that and afaik the problem was solved.
This incident seems to be a timely reminder to any of us with weak spots in our skills to take a good hard look at ourselves and ensure we get them patched up, and especially for FOs to ensure they have the confidence and skills to back up and support, and in extremis manage a floundering Captain.
It is also a wake-up call to training depts to look at all operational scenarios and ensure that sim training covers these thoroughly in addition to the box ticking.
I feel for the crew, even more for the pax exposed to them but feel sure that with sensitive management these two guys should return to the line much better equipped to do there jobs with confidence. I hope so.
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Do you mean the Vertical Speed knob?? Pushing the v/s knob sets v/s to 0 and levels the aircraft....
Good question but no. I mean/meant the ALT pb (as in ALT HOLD) and not the ALT knob.
I haven't tried the V/S.
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Anyone who suggests the previous forced relocation and forthcoming demotion isn't relevant is as moronic as the management who facilitated it in the first place.
Incidentally both pilots had been forcibly relocated (they could have took redundancy I suppose) which effectively multiplies the effect by 2 and possibly increases the effect to the power of 2. The problem is quite widespread and is to going to get any better soon as the displaced/demoted have no priority to return to base ahead of any other 'senior' pilot who fancies a change of scenery.
The problem with stressors like that is nobody really knows how it affects themselves and will no doubt feel as though they are coping. Suggesting that they should be able to self diagnose the problem and then call in to say they are unfit is quite ridiculous isn't it?
I personally feel that this is the biggest single factor. If other factors such as training or type changes or ability were the main factor then there would be a lot more cocked up go arounds in this company.
To answer the more recent posts, GA alt hold does the job you are trying to describe by the way.
Incidentally both pilots had been forcibly relocated (they could have took redundancy I suppose) which effectively multiplies the effect by 2 and possibly increases the effect to the power of 2. The problem is quite widespread and is to going to get any better soon as the displaced/demoted have no priority to return to base ahead of any other 'senior' pilot who fancies a change of scenery.
The problem with stressors like that is nobody really knows how it affects themselves and will no doubt feel as though they are coping. Suggesting that they should be able to self diagnose the problem and then call in to say they are unfit is quite ridiculous isn't it?
I personally feel that this is the biggest single factor. If other factors such as training or type changes or ability were the main factor then there would be a lot more cocked up go arounds in this company.
To answer the more recent posts, GA alt hold does the job you are trying to describe by the way.
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Good question but no. I mean/meant the ALT pb (as in ALT HOLD) and not the ALT knob.
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I don't know if its changed(Boeing wise) but a big difference between Boeing and AB was/is the pedanticism of calling out the FMAs. It was drummed into everyone on the AB course that EVERY FMA change is called and acknowledged on the AB but
I don't remember that to be case with Boeing (75 or 73) no doubt most operators use the manufacturers SOPs as the framework for their own but this practice, or rather lack of, is one I cannot understand. Similarly on the Boeing the FMC operation was the duty of the PM below 10k while the AB allows PF to start pressing buttons from gear up!
Surely its in everyones interest to get general automation training, principles and awareness standardised across different types(and operators) to try and remove at least a small slice of expensive emmental?
But then that would mean cooperation between B & AB!! Silly me.
I don't remember that to be case with Boeing (75 or 73) no doubt most operators use the manufacturers SOPs as the framework for their own but this practice, or rather lack of, is one I cannot understand. Similarly on the Boeing the FMC operation was the duty of the PM below 10k while the AB allows PF to start pressing buttons from gear up!
Surely its in everyones interest to get general automation training, principles and awareness standardised across different types(and operators) to try and remove at least a small slice of expensive emmental?
But then that would mean cooperation between B & AB!! Silly me.
Good question but no. I mean/meant the ALT pb (as in ALT HOLD) and not the ALT knob.
....I'm getting confused now. I thought you were talking about the Airbus?? There is no ALT pb on the bus.
....I'm getting confused now. I thought you were talking about the Airbus?? There is no ALT pb on the bus.
The ALT button on the FCU seems to be an alternative option on the Airbus. On my fleet, we don't have the ALT button; instead, we have an EXP button. Pushing this button EXPedites the climb or descent, by adjusting the target speed to (I think) green dot (climb) or Vmax (descent).
Before anyone jumps in, I don't have access to the manuals, so the details may differ, but the principle applies..........
Anyway, while reading the report, I thought that it resembled one of my better sim checks!!
