Thomas cook b757 incident, what a total mess
Seen so many poor Go Arounds but less since we left the autopilot engaged and used VNAV for the vertical profile. (LNAV has been used for lateral guidance from way back). Far less confusion especially when all spd/ht constraints have been studiously checked beforehand. By definition, a Go Around is unexpected - great to see a good crew carry out a faultless procedure. Says a lot about them............
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Seen so many poor Go Arounds but less since we left the autopilot engaged………
Therein lies a clue. On the B737 the autopilot, single channel, will disconnect when you press TOGA. The A/T will remain in the same state as when TOGA is pressed. Thus, many G/A's (should never be a surprise) are conducted in manual pitch & lateral control. If the A/T is not in use that can add a further complication; and if it is in use in can cause an added confusion. B757/767 is too long ago to remember, but I suspect an autopilot G/A was only from a triple A/P approach.
Therein lies a clue. On the B737 the autopilot, single channel, will disconnect when you press TOGA. The A/T will remain in the same state as when TOGA is pressed. Thus, many G/A's (should never be a surprise) are conducted in manual pitch & lateral control. If the A/T is not in use that can add a further complication; and if it is in use in can cause an added confusion. B757/767 is too long ago to remember, but I suspect an autopilot G/A was only from a triple A/P approach.
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ENERGY MANAGEMENT AGAIN?!
2 pennyworth to move the discussion on a different track, NPI.
Having logged the surface wind, presumably looked at the HSI wind arrow and clocked the W/S reports, why such a high G/S downwind and on base, thereby setting up the scenario for a possible rushed approach?
The difficulty in establishing the LOC likely resulted from this, along with ATC vectors being a possible contributory factor. But then it's up to us GOFs never to shy from hinting to ATC that a different intc vector would be appropriate in the met conditions?
Then, when faced with an instruction to go-around from ATC, was/is it really necessary to go for a TOGA & likely high energy mode when already at 1500' agl? In addition to the rare surprise all-engined G/As, which should be part of the 6-monthly check, why not at least discuss in the sim briefing room other ways of performing a DISCONTINUED APPROACH, which don't rely on auto-flight modes but is still a safe and more passenger-friendly and tired crew-capable way of calling off an approach, especially if not IMC?
This capt PF was obviously distracted and more than likely knackered after the long duty starting early, we've all been and will be there too often, but once again I ask if the concept of Energy Management in all flight phases is a much neglected part of the training/testing environment?
Re the utilisation of sim time, I recall with disgust and frustration the many OPCs where by the time we got "airborne" for the duty predictable EFATO, more than 1 hour of sim time had been squandered on the classic 1st flight of the day cold start full cockpit setup, popped CBs, de-icing and LVO briefings involving normal checklist, supplementary checklist and the operators own Operational Procedures checklist plus engine start malfunctions, lo-vis taxying and the duty RTO. Aaaaaarrrrgh! ! ! ! !
There has to be a better way of using expensive and valuable sim time. I stress I'm not putting the blame on the TREs/TRIs, I'm joining the existing chorus of those on this thread who are vainly challenging the xAAs various to wake up and smell the coffee and join the rest in the auto-dependant 21st century!!!
Having logged the surface wind, presumably looked at the HSI wind arrow and clocked the W/S reports, why such a high G/S downwind and on base, thereby setting up the scenario for a possible rushed approach?
The difficulty in establishing the LOC likely resulted from this, along with ATC vectors being a possible contributory factor. But then it's up to us GOFs never to shy from hinting to ATC that a different intc vector would be appropriate in the met conditions?
Then, when faced with an instruction to go-around from ATC, was/is it really necessary to go for a TOGA & likely high energy mode when already at 1500' agl? In addition to the rare surprise all-engined G/As, which should be part of the 6-monthly check, why not at least discuss in the sim briefing room other ways of performing a DISCONTINUED APPROACH, which don't rely on auto-flight modes but is still a safe and more passenger-friendly and tired crew-capable way of calling off an approach, especially if not IMC?
This capt PF was obviously distracted and more than likely knackered after the long duty starting early, we've all been and will be there too often, but once again I ask if the concept of Energy Management in all flight phases is a much neglected part of the training/testing environment?
Re the utilisation of sim time, I recall with disgust and frustration the many OPCs where by the time we got "airborne" for the duty predictable EFATO, more than 1 hour of sim time had been squandered on the classic 1st flight of the day cold start full cockpit setup, popped CBs, de-icing and LVO briefings involving normal checklist, supplementary checklist and the operators own Operational Procedures checklist plus engine start malfunctions, lo-vis taxying and the duty RTO. Aaaaaarrrrgh! ! ! ! !
There has to be a better way of using expensive and valuable sim time. I stress I'm not putting the blame on the TREs/TRIs, I'm joining the existing chorus of those on this thread who are vainly challenging the xAAs various to wake up and smell the coffee and join the rest in the auto-dependant 21st century!!!
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You need to change your name to "clear & loud common sense."
I too am tongue biting hair out-pulling frustrated at spending 1 hour in FFS TQ courses doing full cockpit set ups and briefings. The guys can't fly the a/c and
are eager to learn; meanwhile they sit on stand learning feckall because the already know how to make the mouth music of briefings and load an FMC from class-room time. AGH! Over the sessions of FFS 4 hours = 1 session is lost to this less important task.
I too am tongue biting hair out-pulling frustrated at spending 1 hour in FFS TQ courses doing full cockpit set ups and briefings. The guys can't fly the a/c and
are eager to learn; meanwhile they sit on stand learning feckall because the already know how to make the mouth music of briefings and load an FMC from class-room time. AGH! Over the sessions of FFS 4 hours = 1 session is lost to this less important task.
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Discontinued Approach
Funny you should bring up "Discontinued Approaches"
That is exactly what we had in the Sim last week. Was told to " Go Around" at 2000 feet during LVP's on the approach at HEL. Go Around Alt is quite low at 1500. So disengaged approach mode, pressed vertical speed zero ( press to level off) it dumps the flight plan though as TOGA not selected so flight plan not sequenced. No big deal, activate secondary, unless you have something else in the secondary, we had a copy of active. Not the sort of excersise we would normally do on an LPC though but definitely worth it
That is exactly what we had in the Sim last week. Was told to " Go Around" at 2000 feet during LVP's on the approach at HEL. Go Around Alt is quite low at 1500. So disengaged approach mode, pressed vertical speed zero ( press to level off) it dumps the flight plan though as TOGA not selected so flight plan not sequenced. No big deal, activate secondary, unless you have something else in the secondary, we had a copy of active. Not the sort of excersise we would normally do on an LPC though but definitely worth it
One big issue with this is that once you are in Approach mode, Boeing makes it pretty hard to get out again. Push TOGA, retune the ILS or disconnect and recycle the FDs. The only one you're conditioned to is pushing TOGA.
I learned this the hard way in MAD where they told us to level off after we'd captured the glide and been cleared for the approach. It's not difficult, but once again it requires training, awareness and thinking about it beforehand.
I learned this the hard way in MAD where they told us to level off after we'd captured the glide and been cleared for the approach. It's not difficult, but once again it requires training, awareness and thinking about it beforehand.
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"One big issue with this is that once you are in Approach mode, Boeing makes it pretty hard to get out again."
Jwscud, I can't speak for the 'bus, but agree with your comment re the Boing.
This implies that once on the glide, we're virtually "trapped" by the automatics.
If in doubt, then "clickety click" each of A/P and A/T and make the 'frame into a great big basic trainer, FLY THE AIRCRAFT, then brief PM to reassemble the autos into something relevant. But I suspect there are training and management types out there who would frown on this as an "escape manoeuvre"?
If as PFs we're incapable of that, then there are other careers out there more suitable.......................?
Rat5, you speak good sense in your postings, pity those who lead and legislate are not in contact with this discussion and loads of others in the various threads.
Jwscud, I can't speak for the 'bus, but agree with your comment re the Boing.
This implies that once on the glide, we're virtually "trapped" by the automatics.
If in doubt, then "clickety click" each of A/P and A/T and make the 'frame into a great big basic trainer, FLY THE AIRCRAFT, then brief PM to reassemble the autos into something relevant. But I suspect there are training and management types out there who would frown on this as an "escape manoeuvre"?
If as PFs we're incapable of that, then there are other careers out there more suitable.......................?
Rat5, you speak good sense in your postings, pity those who lead and legislate are not in contact with this discussion and loads of others in the various threads.
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it's only difficult if one hasn't thought about it. 757 Go-around from above = go around switch followed immediately by v/s. it's very straight forward. In fact a go around in the 75 is very straight forward. This crew just cocked it up. I'm sorry but thats pretty much sums it up for me.
We have had pages of excuses ranging from poor ATC to poor bird management to poor training but non of them cut it.
Birds happen, go arounds happen and TCX's training I'm sure is very good. If the crew were unhappy flying manually then they should have practiced more. Hand flying is encouraged at most UK airlines when the conditions permit exactly for the reasons that the report highlights.
Let this be a lesson to all.. keep up those skills and do well what we are payed to do well in...
We have had pages of excuses ranging from poor ATC to poor bird management to poor training but non of them cut it.
Birds happen, go arounds happen and TCX's training I'm sure is very good. If the crew were unhappy flying manually then they should have practiced more. Hand flying is encouraged at most UK airlines when the conditions permit exactly for the reasons that the report highlights.
Let this be a lesson to all.. keep up those skills and do well what we are payed to do well in...
BARKINGMAD - it's not that we aren't capable, it's just not a manoeuvre discussed or prepared for. In our case, we disconnected and levelled off, followed by a bit of button pushing and confusion before FDs were recycled and we got George back into the game.
If training departments don't discuss these scenarios or throw them in, people will only learn when they find it on the line. An awareness that whatever is set in the MCP and whatever your position relative to that altitude, that hitting TOGA always gives you a climb command is also not always present. If you get trigger-happy with TOGA the moment someone says go-around you can find yourself in trouble. Our training department now teaches "take a deep breath" for unanticipated go arounds above minima.
If training departments don't discuss these scenarios or throw them in, people will only learn when they find it on the line. An awareness that whatever is set in the MCP and whatever your position relative to that altitude, that hitting TOGA always gives you a climb command is also not always present. If you get trigger-happy with TOGA the moment someone says go-around you can find yourself in trouble. Our training department now teaches "take a deep breath" for unanticipated go arounds above minima.
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"followed by a bit of button pushing and confusion before FDs were recycled and we got George back into the game."
Which is why I suggest if unsure as to how to escape from G/S engaged ILS mode via "a bit of button pushing" followed by a slight climb/descent to leveloff, then NO AUTOs followed by deliberate reconstruction and engagement might be more desirable.
The risk is that a 73NG locked into the ILS mode and 2 A/Ps engaged below 2000' RA when it is "instructed" by pressing TOGA, then the power comes on and the pitch starts towards 15 nose-up. Doing this well above DA risks the sort of undesired higher energy state which is what we may be trying to avoid.
So pressing TOGA followed by another pitch mode can introduce the sort of confusion and loss of SA which afflicted the TCX crew, unless this sort of DISCONTINUED APPROACH manoeuvre has been practised and/or briefed and understood beforehand.
Which is why I suggest if unsure as to how to escape from G/S engaged ILS mode via "a bit of button pushing" followed by a slight climb/descent to leveloff, then NO AUTOs followed by deliberate reconstruction and engagement might be more desirable.
The risk is that a 73NG locked into the ILS mode and 2 A/Ps engaged below 2000' RA when it is "instructed" by pressing TOGA, then the power comes on and the pitch starts towards 15 nose-up. Doing this well above DA risks the sort of undesired higher energy state which is what we may be trying to avoid.
So pressing TOGA followed by another pitch mode can introduce the sort of confusion and loss of SA which afflicted the TCX crew, unless this sort of DISCONTINUED APPROACH manoeuvre has been practised and/or briefed and understood beforehand.
Cycle both FD's, at the same time, OFF then ON. Reselect a mode desired. It takes a matter of seconds.
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@dash6 -
I'm not against using the TOGA switches if the situation calls for it. For low altitude G/A's it ** IS ** the correct procedure.
Is this case it should have been used but once the situation became less than ideal the basic option of cycling the FD's, establishing a known A/P mode(verified by FMA) and A/T or manual thrust configuration would have made this a minor event that the crew could have talked about afterwards.
Deselecting the FD's and reselecting them covers multiple situations after the A/P is in engaged in the approach mode. Especially if the approach clearance is cancelled or modified after LOC/GS capture.
Had to deselect and reselect the FD's sometime this summer. I forget the details but it takes approx. maybe 10 seconds to reestablish a desired, and known(just selected/verified mode), automation mode.
I'm not against using the TOGA switches if the situation calls for it. For low altitude G/A's it ** IS ** the correct procedure.
Is this case it should have been used but once the situation became less than ideal the basic option of cycling the FD's, establishing a known A/P mode(verified by FMA) and A/T or manual thrust configuration would have made this a minor event that the crew could have talked about afterwards.
Deselecting the FD's and reselecting them covers multiple situations after the A/P is in engaged in the approach mode. Especially if the approach clearance is cancelled or modified after LOC/GS capture.
Had to deselect and reselect the FD's sometime this summer. I forget the details but it takes approx. maybe 10 seconds to reestablish a desired, and known(just selected/verified mode), automation mode.
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Framer - I agree about pointing the a/c in the direction you want. If automation isn't working, is erratic, or the operator has mode confusion knowing how to quickly establish a simple a/p mode is key. Cycling FD's accomplishes this.
I've been 737NG qualified. Cycling FD's worked on our 737NG's to exit approach capture mode.
I've been 737NG qualified. Cycling FD's worked on our 737NG's to exit approach capture mode.
Is it the 757 where cycling the flight directors takes you out of Approach mode?
On every 737NG I have flown it wouldn't work. When the F/D's go off the a/p goes into CWS pitch and roll, and when you bring the F/D's back the FMA's come back in VOR/LOC and G/S, you are exactly where you started, in Approach mode.
Is the NG the only Boeing that does this? If the 757 doesn't behave like this then I guess it's irrelevant to the topic and I'll drop it.
Cheers
On every 737NG I have flown it wouldn't work. When the F/D's go off the a/p goes into CWS pitch and roll, and when you bring the F/D's back the FMA's come back in VOR/LOC and G/S, you are exactly where you started, in Approach mode.
Is the NG the only Boeing that does this? If the 757 doesn't behave like this then I guess it's irrelevant to the topic and I'll drop it.
Cheers
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As Jwscud said earlier, on the 737, including the NG, you need to disconnect the autopilot as well as cycle the flight directors to get out of approach mode. Of course, if the autopilot is not engaged, just cycling the flight directors will do it. Also, re-tuning the VHF nav receiver will also do it, as well as selecting TOGA.
If you turn the flight directors off with the autopilot engaged, the autopilot will stay in approach mode & the FMA indications will remain the same. The only thing that will happen is that the flight director bars will be removed from the PFDs.
If you turn the flight directors off with the autopilot engaged, the autopilot will stay in approach mode & the FMA indications will remain the same. The only thing that will happen is that the flight director bars will be removed from the PFDs.
Last edited by Oakape; 23rd Oct 2014 at 19:33.
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God forbid to think about what we did before Flight Directors. Attitude & Power seems to work most of the time with or without Factum Dictatums
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My apologies. I was talking about operations AFTER disconnecting the a/p.
Step 1 - fly the airplane.
If the airplane is not heading in the right direction and time or direction of flight is key and the automation isn't working as desired, or there's any automation confusion, the a/p is coming off. That's where my recycling the FD comments start.
Step 1 - fly the airplane.
If the airplane is not heading in the right direction and time or direction of flight is key and the automation isn't working as desired, or there's any automation confusion, the a/p is coming off. That's where my recycling the FD comments start.
Last edited by misd-agin; 24th Oct 2014 at 01:17. Reason: changed "is" to "isn't working as desired"