Why Airline Pilots Should Make $200,000 (or more)
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Well, Aviator I find your article simply brilliant!
Us pilots should be paid more for what we have to put up with.
Just to fill everybody in with what goes on in Italian Aviation:
Talking to a friend who flies for Volare Airlines on the A320, he told me a First Officer hired just hired earns 1.6 million lira per monthe for 55 hrs flying. That is the equivalent of 500 British pounds or 800 US Dollars. To add to it he/she has to sign a 5 year bond for 75 milion lira (25,000 British pounds, 37,000 US Dollars). If you think that to qualify for a JAR ATPL today it cost around 52,000 British Pounds. No wonder young people go for other professions instead of flying!
Us pilots should be paid more for what we have to put up with.
Just to fill everybody in with what goes on in Italian Aviation:
Talking to a friend who flies for Volare Airlines on the A320, he told me a First Officer hired just hired earns 1.6 million lira per monthe for 55 hrs flying. That is the equivalent of 500 British pounds or 800 US Dollars. To add to it he/she has to sign a 5 year bond for 75 milion lira (25,000 British pounds, 37,000 US Dollars). If you think that to qualify for a JAR ATPL today it cost around 52,000 British Pounds. No wonder young people go for other professions instead of flying!
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Self-congratulatory, ego-boosting, melodramatic nonsense.
Since no specific target was nominated, the "whining non-achievers" it was apparently aimed at would seem to encompass anyone who isn't flight crew. Seems to me I know where the whining is coming from.
By the way, can somebody enlighten me as to why, in a market based system which you all presumably support, the amount of money you spend on qualifications has any relevance at all to your final remuneration?
You've got your salary and conditions, boys and girls, you've got your fancy public image (never put your cap on the rear parcel shelf?) and you are among the select few who make a living enjoying what you do. Good luck to you.
Does your ego also demand that we all fall before you in adulation and gratitude?
RD
Since no specific target was nominated, the "whining non-achievers" it was apparently aimed at would seem to encompass anyone who isn't flight crew. Seems to me I know where the whining is coming from.
By the way, can somebody enlighten me as to why, in a market based system which you all presumably support, the amount of money you spend on qualifications has any relevance at all to your final remuneration?
You've got your salary and conditions, boys and girls, you've got your fancy public image (never put your cap on the rear parcel shelf?) and you are among the select few who make a living enjoying what you do. Good luck to you.
Does your ego also demand that we all fall before you in adulation and gratitude?
RD
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Radar Departure2
How much did your training cost?
Who paid it?
And last but not least, is your own life at risk if you or someone else makes a mistake?
Once the gear is up, and things really go wrong the crew is worth millions of dollars.
If the general pubkic would have access to the piles of confidential reports, they would have no doubt.
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Smooth Trimmer
How much did your training cost?
Who paid it?
And last but not least, is your own life at risk if you or someone else makes a mistake?
Once the gear is up, and things really go wrong the crew is worth millions of dollars.
If the general pubkic would have access to the piles of confidential reports, they would have no doubt.
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Smooth Trimmer
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When I left school I gave university a go, as did most of my mates. I don't recall working too hard, nor do I remember the need to work hard. Friends put in the absolute minimum study required, which seemed to equate to about five weeks effort, came out with a degree in something, perhaps fasinating events in the world of painters/artists in 12 AD, applied to various large companies for jobs and did very nicely. There wasn't a lot of stress invovlved, certainly hadn't mortgaged the house and most of them found work that had nothing to do with the qualification they had spent three years drinking to get. Now, I don't begrudge them anything, they are great mates. But while they were taking the p!55 & having a good laugh while I was broke paying to fly they were getting paid and had weekends off. While I had a bomb with a wheel at each corner they had very nice comfy company cars. While I had to work out how to do compass swings they were doing their own kind of swinging! And while I was flying out in the middle of nowhere with just one engine fixed to the front they were in their town houses with a nice stroll to the pub.Anyway, after all that, when the money starts rolling in my general direction, which it is now and it's lovely, they are beginning to sit up and take notice. But they can't say I make too much. How can they? We make choices. I chose the expensive option and do what I love and the gamble paid off. But as the original post from 'aviator' said there are plenty of oportunities for it all to come crashing down. I don't really think thats the case for them. And if it did happen they would just brush themselves off, walk a block and get another job. You can talk about market forces etc but for me 'Aviators' piece is about doing something that pays the bills, and the thought of having to pay them any other way is frightening. And there are plenty of opportunities out there to have to pay them another way.
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RD2
The relevance of the cost of qualification in a free market system is the profit motive.
When you invest, you expect to make a return.
You expect the return to be at least commensurate with the time and money spent, and the risk involved.
BTW there are many market investors out there who love what they are doing, but do not allow that to reduce the returns they expect from their investment.
The relevance of the cost of qualification in a free market system is the profit motive.
When you invest, you expect to make a return.
You expect the return to be at least commensurate with the time and money spent, and the risk involved.
BTW there are many market investors out there who love what they are doing, but do not allow that to reduce the returns they expect from their investment.
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Nonsens
That's why I got a training worth 200000 Us completely for free.
There were over 2000 candidates and only 6 graduated.
If I add the cost of the investment of the guy's who failed it would be much higher.
Why did they do that ?
Probably because I am not worth it.
I can assure you they got their money back.
Not everyboby with talent can afford a loan or will get a loan, as a consequance a lot of rich daddy's boy's get into the bussiness.
As a passenger you should be happy knowing the guy's up front were very expensive to train simply because money was not an issue only quality.
Your reasoning of investment / return is responsible for a lot that goes wrong in this bussines.
Unfortunately training pilot's has become a bussiness in itself and education should never be like that.
Or are you telling that most doctors are just there to fill their pockets and do not care about their patients.
Be happy that the pilots that are up front do love their job. I would not like to be a passenger if the opposite would be true.
Be also assured that management know that to and if they lack some degree of integity they will abuse that pilot trait at will.
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Smooth Trimmer
[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 23 April 2001).]
That's why I got a training worth 200000 Us completely for free.
There were over 2000 candidates and only 6 graduated.
If I add the cost of the investment of the guy's who failed it would be much higher.
Why did they do that ?
Probably because I am not worth it.
I can assure you they got their money back.
Not everyboby with talent can afford a loan or will get a loan, as a consequance a lot of rich daddy's boy's get into the bussiness.
As a passenger you should be happy knowing the guy's up front were very expensive to train simply because money was not an issue only quality.
Your reasoning of investment / return is responsible for a lot that goes wrong in this bussines.
Unfortunately training pilot's has become a bussiness in itself and education should never be like that.
Or are you telling that most doctors are just there to fill their pockets and do not care about their patients.
Be happy that the pilots that are up front do love their job. I would not like to be a passenger if the opposite would be true.
Be also assured that management know that to and if they lack some degree of integity they will abuse that pilot trait at will.
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Smooth Trimmer
[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 23 April 2001).]
Guest
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A fantastic post!!!
One thing.....
Did any of you even give a second thought to all the other people that contribute to your safe aviating. Do any of you ever sit in the flight deck at 37,000ft and think "Hmmm, I wonder if the air traffic controller (who is working his knackers off incidentally) gets paid as much as me". Doesn't it bother you that a large proportion of air traffic controllers never reach retirement age. Where do they go?? They simply die from stress, exhaustion and all the nasty things that come with the job. Do any of you ever sit on the flight deck whilst the aircraft is on the stand, and look out on the apron and see the tug crews, cold, in the pouring rain and freezing wind, lumping a great big tow-bar around so that he can get your aircraft off the stand on time?? Do you think he is worth his salary?? They don't get what you get paid, and they work just as hard!!
Life is unfair. Please remember that you are not the only ones with problems!!!
One thing.....
Did any of you even give a second thought to all the other people that contribute to your safe aviating. Do any of you ever sit in the flight deck at 37,000ft and think "Hmmm, I wonder if the air traffic controller (who is working his knackers off incidentally) gets paid as much as me". Doesn't it bother you that a large proportion of air traffic controllers never reach retirement age. Where do they go?? They simply die from stress, exhaustion and all the nasty things that come with the job. Do any of you ever sit on the flight deck whilst the aircraft is on the stand, and look out on the apron and see the tug crews, cold, in the pouring rain and freezing wind, lumping a great big tow-bar around so that he can get your aircraft off the stand on time?? Do you think he is worth his salary?? They don't get what you get paid, and they work just as hard!!
Life is unfair. Please remember that you are not the only ones with problems!!!
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Yes I do, and I even have a chat with them on a regular basis.
It's only a pity I can not invite them after a 12 hour trip when we get to Chicago and end uo in the middle of some hurrycanes or some heavy snow showers with one of the engines leaking oil getting close to minimum fuel.
I got nearly killed twice by some ATC guy.
Last week a company aircraft made an mayday call in Madrid and the spanish ATC genius did not even understand it.
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Smooth Trimmer
It's only a pity I can not invite them after a 12 hour trip when we get to Chicago and end uo in the middle of some hurrycanes or some heavy snow showers with one of the engines leaking oil getting close to minimum fuel.
I got nearly killed twice by some ATC guy.
Last week a company aircraft made an mayday call in Madrid and the spanish ATC genius did not even understand it.
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Smooth Trimmer
Guest
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Absolute self gratifying tripe.
Surprised your ego fits in the flight deck. Pilots, engineers, roadsweepers are all paid the minimum required to keep turnover to an acceptable level, and the unions off managements backs.
Any other grandiose dilusion stinks of vanity.
Surprised your ego fits in the flight deck. Pilots, engineers, roadsweepers are all paid the minimum required to keep turnover to an acceptable level, and the unions off managements backs.
Any other grandiose dilusion stinks of vanity.
Guest
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There was a very nicely put editorial in Flight International a few months ago, that was to do with expected shortages of pilots. It didn't say that there would not be enough people with licences, it said that there would not be enough suitable people.
You can usually throw money at it and end up with a licence, but that does not necessarily mean that you will be able to cope on that dark, sh**y night when things are going wrong. Not very wrong, but just wrong! You need to pay for quality.......after all a cock up doesn't mean that you are going to lose a few million on the old stocks and shares. It is potentially lives, a lot of lives. It has already been identified that the younger generation don't find the job as attractive anymore. I wonder why?
Life style
Cost
Renumeration.........The fact of the matter is that, comparatively, the job does not pay as it used to. It is only by those of us doing the job, pushing for the appropriate wages that this will change. Bean counters have a good grip on finances but not of the big picture, and therefore it is making more money that counts for them....therefore they squeeze on the wages!
You can usually throw money at it and end up with a licence, but that does not necessarily mean that you will be able to cope on that dark, sh**y night when things are going wrong. Not very wrong, but just wrong! You need to pay for quality.......after all a cock up doesn't mean that you are going to lose a few million on the old stocks and shares. It is potentially lives, a lot of lives. It has already been identified that the younger generation don't find the job as attractive anymore. I wonder why?
Life style
Cost
Renumeration.........The fact of the matter is that, comparatively, the job does not pay as it used to. It is only by those of us doing the job, pushing for the appropriate wages that this will change. Bean counters have a good grip on finances but not of the big picture, and therefore it is making more money that counts for them....therefore they squeeze on the wages!
Guest
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Very good post, but did you see the ones who bitched? ie RD2,Plastick, and deepee? They aparently failed to fully understand the nuance of this post and/or "did not make it". Oh well, it takes all kinds I suppose.
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Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
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Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
Guest
Posts: n/a
How much did you say you paid for those three ATPLs STREAMLINE? Is it cheaper without the validations? And, why did you say that ATC try to kill you twice? Why did they not like you? You are a bad boy, I bet you did your usual thing, and insulted their national qualification.
At least you're flying around a little part of the world and sharing your expertise with the rest of the poorly educated masses.
Keep up the good work STREAMLINE.
At least you're flying around a little part of the world and sharing your expertise with the rest of the poorly educated masses.
Keep up the good work STREAMLINE.
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There is a lot of truth to the initial posting, but a bit dramatic. All of us have chosen to do this, we were not forced into this job, and all started because it was fun. Sure, there were dreams of the big bucks, but it was still fun!
I can assure everyone, that military pilots are no better than civilian pilots. There are just as many idiots from both sides.
The market dictates what we are paid and from what we are willing to stand up for. We pilots are our own worst enemy. Dreams of flying the big ones, haveing the big salary and being jealous for the ones that were lucky enough to land one of those jobs! We've all been there!
Look at the Continental boys! Back in the mid eighties when the union was broken by all the starry eyed youngsters, who thought this was an easy and glorious job, and stepped on the toes of the seasoned veterans, they now want the same salary and respect that they stole from the old guys and gals. What a deal!!
I started as a line boy, became a mechanic, flight engineer, pilot, all flying heavy aircraft, doing it all on my own. I don't make the big bucks compared to the majors, but i have a good life!
I love my job! I have chosen to do this! Fight for what you want, but don't WHINE.
Go do the best job you can everyday, and enjoy yourself, think what you could be doing, stuck doing something that keeps you in a place you don't like at all!
Maybe we don't get paid enough, but , if you can't focus on anything else than money, go work in the financial sector! And, then see how happy you'll be looking up at the sky, saying "wow, i would love to do that again"
I can assure everyone, that military pilots are no better than civilian pilots. There are just as many idiots from both sides.
The market dictates what we are paid and from what we are willing to stand up for. We pilots are our own worst enemy. Dreams of flying the big ones, haveing the big salary and being jealous for the ones that were lucky enough to land one of those jobs! We've all been there!
Look at the Continental boys! Back in the mid eighties when the union was broken by all the starry eyed youngsters, who thought this was an easy and glorious job, and stepped on the toes of the seasoned veterans, they now want the same salary and respect that they stole from the old guys and gals. What a deal!!
I started as a line boy, became a mechanic, flight engineer, pilot, all flying heavy aircraft, doing it all on my own. I don't make the big bucks compared to the majors, but i have a good life!
I love my job! I have chosen to do this! Fight for what you want, but don't WHINE.
Go do the best job you can everyday, and enjoy yourself, think what you could be doing, stuck doing something that keeps you in a place you don't like at all!
Maybe we don't get paid enough, but , if you can't focus on anything else than money, go work in the financial sector! And, then see how happy you'll be looking up at the sky, saying "wow, i would love to do that again"
I can't remember how many years ago I read the original of this article. Yes there is a certain amount of truth in it ( even 411A hasn't been rude) but it isn't really current mores the shame. All of you espousing this as the bible are a bit late!!!
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And on the other hand, when yr pax are paying £25/sector compared to £300 , 6/7 yrs ago . . . .
Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.
Commentary: If only such largesse flowed to all of US
No.9Pilots for major airlines
While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts, senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 - several times pilot pay at regional carriers - for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.
By comparison, senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest, though some enjoy favorable perks like stock options. That helps explain why their employers are profitable while several of the majors are still teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.
The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. They demand premium pay as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200 coast-to-coast roundtrips. Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands.
.......All depends what you want in the long-term, no? ........
Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.
Commentary: If only such largesse flowed to all of US
No.9Pilots for major airlines
While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts, senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 - several times pilot pay at regional carriers - for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.
By comparison, senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest, though some enjoy favorable perks like stock options. That helps explain why their employers are profitable while several of the majors are still teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.
The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. They demand premium pay as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200 coast-to-coast roundtrips. Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands.
.......All depends what you want in the long-term, no? ........
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What a feed from all quarters!
Streamline, you are truly an illiterate prig. I have to surmise that you are posting a wind up and aren't really interested in constructive comment.
Anti Ice, that was a nice throw-away remark at the end about mechanics holding our fate in their hands: they'd be worth the top rate if they took the machinery up and with skill of hand, agility of mind, knowledge of process and procedure and superb crew handling could produce results as seen in the Sioux City accident a few years ago.
In the military we do a job for a whole lot less than the commercial guys with quite a bit more risk. Some use this as a stepping stone to big money, but others are happy to continue without the cash, as it is very satisfying. The commercial sector has discrete stressors of long absences from home, a higher rate of flying across many time which is very fatiguing and a range of other issues that I don't profess to know lots about. Not least the responsibility of hundreds of pax down the back.
The world owes no one a living.
Streamline, you are truly an illiterate prig. I have to surmise that you are posting a wind up and aren't really interested in constructive comment.
Anti Ice, that was a nice throw-away remark at the end about mechanics holding our fate in their hands: they'd be worth the top rate if they took the machinery up and with skill of hand, agility of mind, knowledge of process and procedure and superb crew handling could produce results as seen in the Sioux City accident a few years ago.
In the military we do a job for a whole lot less than the commercial guys with quite a bit more risk. Some use this as a stepping stone to big money, but others are happy to continue without the cash, as it is very satisfying. The commercial sector has discrete stressors of long absences from home, a higher rate of flying across many time which is very fatiguing and a range of other issues that I don't profess to know lots about. Not least the responsibility of hundreds of pax down the back.
The world owes no one a living.