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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

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Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost

Old 26th Apr 2014, 21:50
  #10221 (permalink)  
 
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If MH370 was ditched then it will be intact on the seabed.
Calm sea, then yes, you could ditch keeping the wings and fuselage intact, but minus engines and flaps. But what are the chances of a calm sea in the open ocean? Flying into the swell would be a huge impact. Even flying boats avoided heavy seas.

And I don't believe a controlled ditching is compatible with a suicide. Suicides like a quick, painless death.
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Old 26th Apr 2014, 23:41
  #10222 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf_50 wrote:
Seems like an extraneous requirement to me. They were called upon to look into, not implement. Perhaps, looking into it shone a little light on a few issues and unintended outcomes of such a system.
Think through what that means in practical terms, on a flight deck, when the distinction between a malfunction and an emergency isn't always as clear as hindsight indicates, or for cases when a malfunction becomes and emergency and the Flight Deck Crew have no idea such a change of condition has occurred? Such a trigger would be more likely to generate false positives than do much of any good.
I agree up to the point that under certain conditions, such as during imminent danger at remote locations (outside VHF radio / radar range or total comms failure), as a last item prior to an emergency landing on land or ditching in the ocean, why not add "ELT . . . ON" to the QRH / Emergency check list?

However unlikely, it does happen. An example of total comms failure but without any other failure modes and within radar range, enabling the use of the transponder:
Air France B772 near Zurich on Apr 15th 2013, loss comm | AeroInside

Obviously, in this situation the ELT activation would not be necessary.
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Old 26th Apr 2014, 23:56
  #10223 (permalink)  
 
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."ELT . . . ON" to the QRH
I mentioned this several hundred posts ago. I would certainly switch on if I was in any sort of emergency descent, depress, etc. It is just above my head and I have bashed it a few times.

I still maintain that the aircraft is at the bottom of the sea and intact.

No reason for the engines to be 'torn' off as the motors would be turning at initial impact. Most of the energy would have been absorbed by the time the flaps hit the water.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 01:05
  #10224 (permalink)  
 
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As nothing of interest has been found in the current search area, the Chinese location is where I'd be deploying the Bluefin next.
Given how low credibility is assigned to the Chinese methods, I wouldn't consider it likely, there is still plenty of square km to be searched around the current spot. The "current" 10 km radius can be easily doubled and this quadruples the area to be searched.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 01:14
  #10225 (permalink)  
 
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No reason for the engines to be 'torn' off as the motors would be turning at initial impact.
Aren't the engine pylons attached to the wing with shear bolts to allow them to break away at impact?
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 01:53
  #10226 (permalink)  
 
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Aren't the engine pylons attached to the wing with shear bolts to allow them to break away at impact?
That's the general idea - you want to lose engines behind since they could be a source of ignition.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 03:55
  #10227 (permalink)  
 
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Aren't the engine pylons attached to the wing with shear bolts to allow them to break away at impact?
The idea is to make the wing box and its fuel tanks not be overloaded by the impact moment forces on the nacelle/pylons when it digs in.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 12:16
  #10228 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Green-dot
I agree up to the point that under certain conditions, such as during imminent danger at remote locations (outside VHF radio / radar range or total comms failure), as a last item prior to an emergency landing on land or ditching in the ocean, why not add "ELT . . . ON" to the QRH / Emergency check list?

However unlikely, it does happen. An example of total comms failure but without any other failure modes and within radar range, enabling the use of the transponder:
Air France B772 near Zurich on Apr 15th 2013, loss comm | AeroInside
Fair point. Can't hurt to get it on before impact if you have the time/task load available.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 13:10
  #10229 (permalink)  
 
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Lots of interesting things here to talk about

someone said the flaps would come off

if no one was flying, maybe they would not be down and less likely to come off?

about the ELT and switching it on as part of a checklist. How about also having the ELT on a timer, set before ENGINE START based on amount of fuel/estimated time to dry tanks at presumed fuel burn rate.

eg: 7 hours of fuel on board, set timer for 6 plus 45. And ELT will start transmitting with fifteen minutes of fuel left.


And the ELT timer would be reset to neutral/off during the after shutdown checklist.

In this way, "G" forces would not be the sole determining factor for transmission. Also remember that if the plane is still airborne, the ELT will transmit farther (ref terrestrial receivers)
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 13:39
  #10230 (permalink)  
 
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Reference was made to switch the ELT on. I don't think this model of B777 would have the ELT switch on the overhead panel.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 14:29
  #10231 (permalink)  
 
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Reference was made to switch the ELT on. I don't think this model of B777 would have the ELT switch on the overhead panel.
Why would you think that? Remote switch installation is mandatory according to U.S. FAA rules (where the plane was built).
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 14:33
  #10232 (permalink)  
 
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The suggestion by James7 that a large jet with underslung engines could ditch in the middle of an ocean, come to rest, and then sink two or three miles to the sea bed, while remaining completely intact, is implausible.

Even if the ditching was flown by a practised pilot, and with all high-lift devices available, it is more than likely that the engines and pylons would be torn off, as well as all or substantial parts of the slats, flaps and elevators. Even if the engines remained attached, the fan cowlings would probably be ripped off. Apart from the engines themselves, most of these large items are made of composite material, and would float.

If the ditching was uncontrolled, it is likely to have been with a clean wing at a minimum of 200 knots, and the wings are unlikely to have been level (even if the surface of the water was). The chances of the a/c landing flat to the water and parallel to the swell are remote, so the a/c would be likely to cartwheel - like the Ethiopian Airlines B767 did many years ago - and break up. In that event, the fin would almost certainly detach and float, as-per AF447, together with an enormous amount of other debris.

The absence of any wreckage recovery is deeply puzzling, IMO. I'm not aware of any major storms in the search area in the interim, but I stand to be corrected. By now the search teams have had plenty of time to estimate the possible effects of current and wind on the movement of different types of weckage.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 14:52
  #10233 (permalink)  
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Snoop Bizarre.

We have an indicated area to search from the Inmarsat signals. We have, apparently, heard the 'Pings' from the CVR etc...but, as far as I'm aware..there is not one single, confirmed morsel of physical evidence from the aircraft..... Sure, most of it would have sunk.......but SOME items would have floated.....there must have been thousands of buoyant objects in that aircraft. One appreciates the vastness of the ocean......and the wind and currents, - but nonetheless....it does seem very strange. Then again, just about everything about this incident seems unprecedented and bizarre in just about every way...
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 14:56
  #10234 (permalink)  
 
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Aren't the engine pylons attached to the wing with shear bolts to allow them to break away at impact?
That's the general idea - you want to lose engines behind since they could be a source of ignition.
The idea is to make the wing box and its fuel tanks not be overloaded by the impact moment forces on the nacelle/pylons when it digs in.

Priceless jewels of wisdom. It would be good to remember these the next time an airliner is depicted flying through solid objects. Thank you.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 15:06
  #10235 (permalink)  
 
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Hi,

According to the B777 FCOM emergency section, it does not show a fuselage mounted ELT is attached to the B777 200/200ER.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 15:48
  #10236 (permalink)  
 
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There are two approved ELT providers for the B-777, Honeywell and ACR, both of which have cockpit control panels and interface with the master caution system. The ELT transmitter, with internal battery, is mounted inside the fuselage skin, above the aft cabin doors and is connected to an external antenna mounted very close above the ELT.

Second item, an earlier (deleted) post mentioned MAS avionics shop. To my knowledge their shop in KL does not have the knowledge, skills or approvals to do any work on the Honeywell AIMS cabinet modules nor the ADIRU.

Third item, The CVR/FDR are mounted in hard trays, attached to major airframe structure in the tail of the aircraft. Not accessible in flight, and not likely to be dislodged from the structure during a crash. Also please remember that there is a QAR module in the avionics package that might be readable when found.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 16:27
  #10237 (permalink)  
 
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Preliminary Report Release May 1

Malaysia's Prime Minister Razak says government will release a preliminary report on MH370's disappearance - @CNN cnn.it/QBIeTs

Can we expect fact to be separated from fiction given its coming from gov?
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 21:07
  #10238 (permalink)  
 
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There are only two possibilities: Those in charge are incompetent fools and completely wrong, or the equipment isn't sensitive enough to find the wreckage.

There isn't going to be an answer in the preliminary report.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 21:57
  #10239 (permalink)  
 
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Tropical Cyclone Gillian

Chris Scott " I'm not aware of any major storms in the search area in the interim, but I stand to be corrected."

While the search was concentrated on the area south-west of Perth, TC Gillian passed through the current search area. Whilst it had weakened from its original Cat 5, it would likely have been generating wind and waves enough to pulverise any larger pieces of wreckage, and widely disperse anything left floating.
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Old 27th Apr 2014, 23:00
  #10240 (permalink)  
 
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If the aircraft was built after 1992, the cockpit remote switch was a requirement of the TSO for ELT installations.
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