Italian CAA (ENAC) spike free employment
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Italian CAA (ENAC) spike free employment
As some here know, I was supposed to go to Italy on a 6-month contract to fly an ATR42 for a new start-up called Air Industria.
I was, until Gill's sad demise 8 months ago, current as a skipper on ATR's, both 42 and 72.
I was phoned this morning by the pilot agency concerned to say that a spanner had been inserted in the works by the Italian CAA-equivalent. They apparently require non-nationals who are qualified on type but not current (which they define as having flown within the past 6 months - JAA use 1 year) to go through 3 times the sim time previously expected and a minimum of 20 line training sectors.
The same requirement is not, apparently, being specified for Italians who are not current.
I am led to believe that there is an FO working for another Italian ATR operator who thinks he should have a command, which he will not get with his current operator. He has an acquaintance, friend or relative in ENAC, whom he contacted when he heard that Air Industria were planning to hire a few non-Italian captains. ENAC have now inserted said spanner.
Result?
Half a dozen unemployed captains are now back in limbo. The airline cannot afford to employ pilots who are not "current" on type and cannot, of course, afford to upset their regulatory body. There are still quite a few ex-Gill ATR people without a job.
All because of this protectionist action which, according to my understanding of EU Regulations, is totally illegal.
I was, until Gill's sad demise 8 months ago, current as a skipper on ATR's, both 42 and 72.
I was phoned this morning by the pilot agency concerned to say that a spanner had been inserted in the works by the Italian CAA-equivalent. They apparently require non-nationals who are qualified on type but not current (which they define as having flown within the past 6 months - JAA use 1 year) to go through 3 times the sim time previously expected and a minimum of 20 line training sectors.
The same requirement is not, apparently, being specified for Italians who are not current.
I am led to believe that there is an FO working for another Italian ATR operator who thinks he should have a command, which he will not get with his current operator. He has an acquaintance, friend or relative in ENAC, whom he contacted when he heard that Air Industria were planning to hire a few non-Italian captains. ENAC have now inserted said spanner.
Result?
Half a dozen unemployed captains are now back in limbo. The airline cannot afford to employ pilots who are not "current" on type and cannot, of course, afford to upset their regulatory body. There are still quite a few ex-Gill ATR people without a job.
All because of this protectionist action which, according to my understanding of EU Regulations, is totally illegal.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've spoken to the CAA - they seem (understandably) unwilling to get involved in what appears to be a matter internal to Italian aviation.
I have no contact details for any person or department within JAA.
I have no contact details for any person or department within JAA.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: over here
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't, either - but from their website...
Licensing Director
Mr F Wood
Tel: 31 23 5679 727
Fax: 31 23 5621 714
There's a lot of blurb about harmonisation and EU cooperation, so it's got to be worth a call, mate. Good luck!!
Licensing Director
Mr F Wood
Tel: 31 23 5679 727
Fax: 31 23 5621 714
There's a lot of blurb about harmonisation and EU cooperation, so it's got to be worth a call, mate. Good luck!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks - I'm on to it now!
Update:-
According to JAR's I am still current on type. I last flew an OPC/LPC in August, I last flew the aircraft in September. Currency requirement is 10 line sectors and one flight (or sim trip) with an examiner within 12 months. I am therefore current according to JAR's.
However, JAA tell me that JAR OPS are not yet implemented in Italy. They can therefore define the regs. as they wish. This, of course, notwithstanding the fact that they are JAA members, have been attending meetings for the past 10 years to thrash out all the rules, and are expected to act in the spirit, if not the letter, of the agreements.
JAA can therefore not assist.
Update:-
According to JAR's I am still current on type. I last flew an OPC/LPC in August, I last flew the aircraft in September. Currency requirement is 10 line sectors and one flight (or sim trip) with an examiner within 12 months. I am therefore current according to JAR's.
However, JAA tell me that JAR OPS are not yet implemented in Italy. They can therefore define the regs. as they wish. This, of course, notwithstanding the fact that they are JAA members, have been attending meetings for the past 10 years to thrash out all the rules, and are expected to act in the spirit, if not the letter, of the agreements.
JAA can therefore not assist.
Last edited by HugMonster; 15th May 2002 at 14:23.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: BRS
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It probably is illegal. They have treat all EU member nationals the same, so to have different currency rules for different nationalities is a no no.
Question is, what can be done about it?
Question is, what can be done about it?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep. Emailed and phoned him - waiting for a response.
Full list:-
CAA
JAA
DTLR
Home Office
Dept. for Employment
Italian Embassy
Italian Trade Commission
ERAA
BALPA
MP
Full list:-
CAA
JAA
DTLR
Home Office
Dept. for Employment
Italian Embassy
Italian Trade Commission
ERAA
BALPA
MP
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: U.K.
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugmonster, did you actually get to Rome or not?
I too was offered this job, but because they wouldn't pay a salary/contract fee for the duration of the training/conversion period (approx 2 weeks) I decided to turn it down. They had originally asked me to travel on the 14th May ...
I too was offered this job, but because they wouldn't pay a salary/contract fee for the duration of the training/conversion period (approx 2 weeks) I decided to turn it down. They had originally asked me to travel on the 14th May ...
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: U.K.
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to hear that Hug Monster, but like you I am now still unemployed.
However, I have to admit that I am not entirely surprised by the Italians reactions. We should do a bit more of that over here. At least the Italians, and particularly the French and Germans, are prepared to stand up and attempt to protect their own jobs on their own soil (yes I know that we are all in Europe now, but it is just not a level playing field, is it). How often do you heari non Brits flying the line for all sorts of UK operators.
Good luck with the jobhunting.
However, I have to admit that I am not entirely surprised by the Italians reactions. We should do a bit more of that over here. At least the Italians, and particularly the French and Germans, are prepared to stand up and attempt to protect their own jobs on their own soil (yes I know that we are all in Europe now, but it is just not a level playing field, is it). How often do you heari non Brits flying the line for all sorts of UK operators.
Good luck with the jobhunting.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Complete tosh.
I have never backed protectionism. I am in favour of a level playing-field. The last time I expressed a view on the subject, the pilots in question were Australian nationals. I dropped my protests when I heard that they were also EU citizens.
Britain accepts pilots from all over the place coming here to work. Provided there is true reciprocity, I have no problem with that.
In this case, the rules are being manipulated by the Italian authorities in direct contravention of EU Law.
An apology will be gratefully accepted.
I have never backed protectionism. I am in favour of a level playing-field. The last time I expressed a view on the subject, the pilots in question were Australian nationals. I dropped my protests when I heard that they were also EU citizens.
Britain accepts pilots from all over the place coming here to work. Provided there is true reciprocity, I have no problem with that.
In this case, the rules are being manipulated by the Italian authorities in direct contravention of EU Law.
An apology will be gratefully accepted.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Napoli
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WELCOME TO ITALY,
That is all I can say, that is how they operate here.
Sorry to hear about your situation but they all seem to have a 'friend' in Civile Avia, whenever there is a problem it gets smoothed over or what ever is trying to be done is kicked out, depending on who is crossing the particular palms with the required silver.
Very frustrating.
That is all I can say, that is how they operate here.
Sorry to hear about your situation but they all seem to have a 'friend' in Civile Avia, whenever there is a problem it gets smoothed over or what ever is trying to be done is kicked out, depending on who is crossing the particular palms with the required silver.
Very frustrating.
Guest
Posts: n/a
A Time for Change?
Huggy - I don't know the full story so this may not be relevant but, given you experience, would you not be better trying for an F/O slot with, say, EasyJet and plan on having a jet command within 2/3 years rather than chase down ATR commands which would seem to be few and far between?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: here to eternity
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Khan - I'd love a job with easyJet - I don't mind which seat - if they'd invite me for an assessment!
I haven't heard of any of the ex-Gill mob being invited.
I'm only trying to get a foreign job because nobody here seems to be employing right now.
I haven't heard of any of the ex-Gill mob being invited.
I'm only trying to get a foreign job because nobody here seems to be employing right now.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hugs
I dunno what the money would be like but Aer Arann [operating 42s and soon to be 72s] is expanding and a bit closer than Italy.
They're operating as a de facto EI express, and with the BACE cutbacks could end up operating a lot of Ireland-UK routes if they can get the capital together.
They botched the move from the Shorts fleet which caused a bit of strife so you may want to chat to a driver or two there...
cheers
MarkD
I dunno what the money would be like but Aer Arann [operating 42s and soon to be 72s] is expanding and a bit closer than Italy.
They're operating as a de facto EI express, and with the BACE cutbacks could end up operating a lot of Ireland-UK routes if they can get the capital together.
They botched the move from the Shorts fleet which caused a bit of strife so you may want to chat to a driver or two there...
cheers
MarkD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: somewhere
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys,
of course it is not fair if you don't get a job because of reasons like this. But it seems that it is not due to ENAC, it is due to company policy, italian mafia, like always. I fly for an italian charter company and we have quite a few non italien pilots, including me, it's never a problem. But within the company there is a seniority: military, italians, the rest.
On one side I can understand you, I work in other countrys now for 7 years but this is because german companies hired a lot of dutch and spanish pilots instead of germans. So I understand if a comany prefers national pilots (as long as I keep my job).
And as we all know it is very difficult for non UK pilots to work in the UK, I tried several times.
At the end the question is, do you really want to work for a company like this?
Anyway good luck for you guys.
of course it is not fair if you don't get a job because of reasons like this. But it seems that it is not due to ENAC, it is due to company policy, italian mafia, like always. I fly for an italian charter company and we have quite a few non italien pilots, including me, it's never a problem. But within the company there is a seniority: military, italians, the rest.
On one side I can understand you, I work in other countrys now for 7 years but this is because german companies hired a lot of dutch and spanish pilots instead of germans. So I understand if a comany prefers national pilots (as long as I keep my job).
And as we all know it is very difficult for non UK pilots to work in the UK, I tried several times.
At the end the question is, do you really want to work for a company like this?
Anyway good luck for you guys.
Last edited by Freddie; 19th May 2002 at 17:25.
