Gatwick Airport plane (allegedly) lands without clearance

[A and C]

Blame successive UK Governments

The reason that traffic in the London area is packed so closely together and as a result incidents like this happen is due to a lack of runway space.

UK Governments of all political party's have been to cowardly to build the runways that London badly needs, the root of the problem is that we now have a class of career MP 's who's only aim is to stay in power by avoiding offending any one by not taking tough decisions.

Basically the attitude of MP's is the country can rot as long as they preserve their careers.......... There is not a statesman amongst them !

[Mikehotel152]

Wot he said.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

1Charlie. My handle is the R/T callsign I used for most of my working life, although I could have used "Heathrow Tower" instead.

I sat up front on a BA 747 landing at Heathrow. After landing the pilot was told to take a particular turn onto a taxiway. Captain said said "We'll take the first turn; it's quicker". I told him that he should do as he was told as he was not to know if the turn off he was about to take might have a problem. He readily accepted my point. ATC is the only agency which has the full picture of traffic, both aircraft and vehicles, on the ground and if a GA instruction is issued it would be folly to ignore it. Sorry, but that's my opinion put as poilitely as I can.

[NigelOnDraft]

HD

and if a GA instruction is issued it would be folly to ignore it.

Understood, but if your "instructions" are so vital, they need to be made in good time / at a suitable point to be comprehended and actioned.

After landing the pilot was told to take a particular turn onto a taxiway

In today's world this is often too late... I have been asked by LHR ATC, on short finals, to make an early turn off. Trouble is, I briefed 45mins ago and setup for a reduced flap landing (iaw my company policy to save ~7kgs of fuel) = a longer landing roll, and if I now alter Flap <1000agl, I have to Go Around (Company dictat).

We are encouraged more and more the brief taxi routes, / vacating points etc., and it is not in our "training" to just accept a change on the rollout. Yes - some can and will try to cope, but I have seen more than one inappropriate screeching turn to comply, and often if ATC start issuing instructions on the rollout I tell my colleague to disregard them until there is a suitable space in our SOPs actions / callouts.

[1Charlie]

I agree. If you MUST issue instructions in such a critical phase of flight be prepared for the pilot to make up his own mind.

[Defruiter]

You want a landing clearance sooner? Sure, that can be arranged. Final approach spacing will have to be increased though. Less aircraft will land per hour. You'll spend more time going round and round in circles waiting to come in. You'll all probably start moaning about that then. We can't win....

[Dan Dare]

Here's an idea:

Why don't ATCOs go on regular Fam flights and pilots visit ATC? The safety benefits could be enormous. Oh, it would cost a few shillings, so it could never happen

As for late go-around calls - although not ideal there are all sorts of reasons for a late call and mostly unpredictable. I am seeing more and more unnecessary go-arounds being instructed for no good reason (except that we get sacked if we get it wrong) and feel that is is not safer either. If you want a landing clearance or go-around instruction at 500' that is fine, and can also be a possibility, but you loose 40 miles of final approach spacing per hour. How would UK plc or IAG shares fare with these constraints?

[provo]

Dan Dare

I remember going to NATS a few years ago and being involved in a joint pilot/ATCO CRM type initiative. I thought that we all learnt a bit about some of the problems faced on either side of the microphone. Not too sure if it still happens or if anything changed as a result

[A and C]

Provo

I went on that NATS/pilot CRM program, a day well spent it increased my understanding and respect for those who have to control the traffic, the insight into the problems faced by ATC has helped me no end.

[Mikehotel152]

A lot of NATS facilities will accept visitors. I went to STN tower recently and enjoyed an informative yet relaxed visit which included chocolates and coffee. Whether my airline would allow me to reciprocate is another matter, but not necessarily out of the question.

[blind pew]

Made a good half a dozen visits to heathrow tower in the 70s...always warmly received and learnt a bit which changed BEAs RT.
On initial contact with departures we used to go through the whole card with clearance ..blah blah blah...discovered the controllers worked the same screen and asked what they needed.
Bea line 247 passing 3.6.
Good morning Bealine 247 radar identified continue as cleared.

Got a huge rollicking from the skipper but explained why three calls were unnecessary and the word spread.

Similarly flying with the Swiss used to fly underneath the Biggin stack at VNE until we recieved climb clearance.
Just needed to ask " do you have any specific speed restrictions".

Great bunch of guys.
During my induction in Zurich we had a day with ATC and similarly on my command course.

Notice my post re landing without clearance in Tripoli has disappeared.
C'est la vie.

[no sponsor]

Personally, if the runway was clear, and I had not received landing clearance and could see the entire runway was clear, I would continue to land.

If I had been instructed to go-around, then I would go-around, unless there was an emergency which meant it was safer to land.

[clearanceoverthekeys]

KK Air: Germania 9972 expedite to vacate at FR

GMI9972: Expedite vacating FR Germania 9972

KK Air: Royal air maroc 672S runway 26 left wind 210 at 15 knots maximum of 27 disregard royal air maroc 672s go around I say again go around acknowledge turn left heading 180 maintain altitude 3000 feet

RAM672S: Air maroc 672s go around and erm runway heading (unintelligible)

KK Air: Easy 84AB stop disregard line up clearance and hold...

RAM672S: 672S on ground

EZY84AB: Holding position Easy 84AB

KK Air: Thank you sir

KK Air: Germania 9972 ground 121.8 goodbye

GMI9972: 121.8 bye

KK Air: RAM672S contact ground 121.8

RAM672S: ground 121.8 and (unintelligible) there is (unintelligible but sounds like wake) turbulence on final

KK Air: Roger

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<We are encouraged more and more the brief taxi routes, / vacating points etc., and it is not in our "training" to just accept a change on the rollout. Yes - some can and will try to cope, but I have seen more than one inappropriate screeching turn to comply, and often if ATC start issuing instructions on the rollout I tell my colleague to disregard them until there is a suitable space in our SOPs actions / callouts.>>

You didn't used to fly VC10s by any chance Nigel?

Things happen fast at a busy airfield and the fact that you "briefed" on something an hour ago means zilch to ATC..... Someone on short final and an airfield vehicle calls on another frequency that they've seen debris on the runway... so the Tower instruct a G/A. It's no good getting an engine full of crap and saying you briefed for this, that or the other over Northern Africa. If that's really what happens nowadays I'm glad I'm out of it.

[Basil]

ISTR, at JFK, being given the landing runway on the finals turn, at KWI being given a late change, at HKG being given a GA for no apparent reason (even when subsequently discussed).

[F-16GUY]

To land or not to land, that is the question...

I am quite puzzled by some of the posts I read in this so-called ”professional” pilot site.

If you for any reason consider a Go Around in a functioning airplane, anything else then a routine manoeuvre, regardless of the type of aircraft you are flying, seat position upfront, company etc., then sorry, but you should not be there in the first place.

If you consider the Go Around to be a stressful emergency like event, you should practice it some more, either in the sim, by chair flying it or ideally in the aircraft if you ever get the chance. God airmanship dictates that you know your own limitations and that you actively seek to become better/stronger in those areas.

If you are concerned about filling out paperwork due to a Go Around, regardless of why you have to do so (collecting data or justifying), and therefore elect to avoid Go Arounds when ever possible, then you should re-think the concept of airmanship. Furthermore, a wrong decision to avoid a Go Around where it was called for, would at best scare you and bring loads of paperwork your way. The other end of that scale is the end of your flying career the “ugly” way…

Pilots and controllers are all humans and they all make mistakes. I will be the first to admit that I make mistakes. Making mistakes is not always a bad thing, as long as the mistakes made are new and that the mistakes made results in new knowledge, which is shared.

Do you know the old joke about the difference between a pilot and a controller? When the pilot makes a mistake, he dies – when the controller makes a mistake, the pilot dies!

Even though this joke is very real, I believe that in the case of a Go Around an error on the side of the controller issuing the instruction is an error on the “better safe then sorry” side of the scale.

If a pilot wilfully decides to ignore the order, maybe because he thinks he possesses total situational awareness, then he should maybe consider leaving a tad of his ego at home, next time he goes to work. The tricky thing about situational awareness is that you only know when you have had a brake-down in your situational awareness, the instant that you start to regain it.

I know that my “company” has a slightly different pattern of operation then most commercial companies, but most of the going out from/into an airfield part is probably pretty much the same. Our SOP stipulates that a Go Around shall (not should) be performed anytime it is required for the safety of flight, regardless of the reason (ordered by ATC, bad approach etc.) and regardless of when it is required (even during flare or touchdown).

Furthermore our SOP describes how to perform a low approach and when to perform one. A low approach is to be performed if ordered by ATC, if on short final at 100’ AGL and with no clearance to land (unless ATC tells you to expect late clearance) or anytime the pilot deems it necessary to perform a low approach. The low approach itself is described in the SOP as an overshoot of the RWY not lower then 100’ AGL and offset slightly to the right of the RWY. The 100’ AGL minimum is to avoid any other traffic on the RWY (mind you an Airbus 380 fin reaches close to 75 feet up in the air), and the offset part is intended to improve the pilot(s) view of the RWY over the nose of the aircraft.

Last but not least, if you are one of those so called professionals, whom have managed to puzzle me during this debate, I sure hope that on the night when I for any reason happened to end on the threshold of the runway you are approaching (we all make mistakes even I do), and the controller instruct you to Go Around, You comply without hesitation or delay, thereby avoiding being the last slice of cheese with the holes aligned. If on the other hand you chose to ignore the controller’s instruction, I hope that the pure bastard in front of you or the pure bastard sitting in the cabin behind you is not me….

[YRP]

Does anyone know whether the aircraft acknowledged with just their callsign or "callsign, go around"? Everyone seems to be assuming they deliberately landed without clearance. Maybe they just misheard... still a problem but not quite as dramatic as understanding but deciding to land anyway.

Someone said they had listened to the recording. Any idea?

(Bit out of my depth here... VFR in Canada, we just acknowledge most clearances with callsign only).

[zonoma]

YRP, the news article says that the pilot acknowledged the instruction to "go around" so knowing NATS, they wouldn't say that if the aircraft hadn't responded "Maroc****, going around".

My thoughts are that if you haven't been issued a landing clearance, you should never even brush the tarmac, let alone touch and go as a post or two alluded to earlier. That is for the cockpit to know exactly how low they can get and have that "decision height" even if told to expect a late landing clearance. I cannot even contemplate what would happen if a controller ignores such a major instruction.

For those that think it is fine to ignore ATC, I hope you aren't the next major news article that ends up being your fault after the investigation.

[clearanceoverthekeys]

YRP/Zonoma: My post #73 above which was waiting for approval by a moderator.

[DH_call]

Perhap all of you "command" pilots need a reminder that the worst disaster in aviation history happened on a runway when a 747 "commander" exercised his command decision. That instance might not be exactly the same as what happened here but it boils down to the captain doing the opposite of what the ATC wanted him to do.
As F-16GUY mentioned earlier, if performing a go around makes your butt tingle then I'm afraid you need some more sim time.