NTSB update on Asiana 214
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appears to have assumed (with reasonable logic, I would say)
They are not paid to 'assume' anything but to know systems and fly as trained.
Also, apart from any A/T logic they had no business assuming that auto-throttle wouldn't fail. This A/T (even if engaged) could have simply malfunctioned or failed during this approach - they would still be expected to land this aircraft in one piece.
Also I am not even sure if their assumption was 'reasonable' to begin with. This A/T A/P logic was vetted during certification and they could very well be good reasons why it is supposed to work this way.
Last edited by olasek; 1st Apr 2014 at 20:46.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to you that they don't know how the throttles work?
Only one aspect of course, what was his thinking about the falling speed - if he was thinking about it at all ! - and what was the other pilot doing.
Life was easier before computers - in every walk of life !
We just flew the bl**dy aeroplane !
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I, too add my voice to ExSp33b1rd, olasek & a host of other pilots
Yes, the throttles move on the T7 just like the B747 when A/T is engaged, and agree it's a good idea to be hands on, the FMA reminder is HOLD, seems pretty clear to me. If you're holding them, expect to move them.
I also cannot comprehend the logic of waiting for / planning for / expecting an automatic feature like the Airbus' autothrottle alpha prot (or whatever it's called, it's been awhile) to make up for your shortcomings as a pilot.
As an example: planning an approach where you expect Load Relief to take care of any flap overspeed, or relying on a GPWS caution to remind you to perform some function would indicate to me that you're in the wrong business.
Yes, the throttles move on the T7 just like the B747 when A/T is engaged, and agree it's a good idea to be hands on, the FMA reminder is HOLD, seems pretty clear to me. If you're holding them, expect to move them.
I also cannot comprehend the logic of waiting for / planning for / expecting an automatic feature like the Airbus' autothrottle alpha prot (or whatever it's called, it's been awhile) to make up for your shortcomings as a pilot.
As an example: planning an approach where you expect Load Relief to take care of any flap overspeed, or relying on a GPWS caution to remind you to perform some function would indicate to me that you're in the wrong business.
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To me at least, it is not instinctive that disconnecting the AP without turning off the autothrottle would cause you to lose airspeed protection.
Besides, surely the throttle is one of the first things you'd check if you were low on the approach? Four red PAPI, and all the other signs, would shout 'power', no?
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Having flown the 777 and Airbus, I prefer the moving TLs.
However, and my memory of 777 tech is sketchy, I believe that a system which doesn't warn the pilot that the AT is "disconnected" and has not received a direct disconnect physical action from the crew is flawed.
These are not the first crew to be caught out by this and won't be the last until there's an EICAS warning for the crew.
In the same vein, with a bit of thread creep, how is it that Boeing still produce a/c that won't auto retract the spoilers/speedbrake during a terrain avoidance manoeuvre? It's already killed people and so, now, has this AT issue.
Happy to be corrected on memory issues!
However, and my memory of 777 tech is sketchy, I believe that a system which doesn't warn the pilot that the AT is "disconnected" and has not received a direct disconnect physical action from the crew is flawed.
These are not the first crew to be caught out by this and won't be the last until there's an EICAS warning for the crew.
In the same vein, with a bit of thread creep, how is it that Boeing still produce a/c that won't auto retract the spoilers/speedbrake during a terrain avoidance manoeuvre? It's already killed people and so, now, has this AT issue.
Happy to be corrected on memory issues!
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Sir Richard,
What's with the
? Stop acting like your abbreviation!
Yes, there is a low speed warning, but it is not triggered by the autothrottle being disconnected in FLCH. As you are well aware, it will come at a predetermined condition when the situation is already well developed.
If the crew are not cognisant that the autothrottle wake up mode is disabled, coupled with a high workload due to an unfamiliar approach/new type/tired etc etc then there is a killer trap and IMHO it's a design flaw.
What's with the
? Stop acting like your abbreviation!Yes, there is a low speed warning, but it is not triggered by the autothrottle being disconnected in FLCH. As you are well aware, it will come at a predetermined condition when the situation is already well developed.
If the crew are not cognisant that the autothrottle wake up mode is disabled, coupled with a high workload due to an unfamiliar approach/new type/tired etc etc then there is a killer trap and IMHO it's a design flaw.
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If the crew are not cognisant that the autothrottle
Last edited by olasek; 2nd Apr 2014 at 23:12.
Yeh, well, let's permanently disable all those other safety aids like GPWS, TCAS, Windshear Avoidance systems... why on earth would pilots need it? They're supposed to be good enough at their job not to... 
Captain Bloggs: your zinger is appreciated, 
but I'd like to point out the following:
Airspeed is not a "safety aid," it is a primary performance instrument.
As above: when was the last check ride you passed where you were 20 knots slow on final?
I will predict that your answer will be "never!"
but I'd like to point out the following:Airspeed is not a "safety aid," it is a primary performance instrument.
As above: when was the last check ride you passed where you were 20 knots slow on final?
I will predict that your answer will be "never!"
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They are not paid to 'assume' anything but to know systems and fly as trained.
unfortunately...
we are not paid to know all the systems. It is considered dangerous (logical considering the complexity modern jets have) by Boeing and the manuals only give you 1% of the technical background of the jet you are flying. If Boeing wanted you to know their 777 and 787 jets in detail, no pilot would pass his technical test. The flightdeck is only a USER INTERFACE, nothing more. We pilots learn to use the user interface. There is nothing wrong with that philosophy.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 4th Apr 2014 at 07:38.
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Quote:
They should be, "A/T HOLD" is displaced right in front of their noses.
If the crew are not cognisant that the autothrottle
Another good point is that "low speed" is never upgraded (from caution to warning) depending on (radio) altitude. Obviously low speed is much more dangerous in some range like 5 to 500 feet than it is outside that range.
Also interesting in that document is an indirect reference to this forum (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7926629) via the reference to Fallows's blog in footnote 138 (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/... crash/277563/) on the FLCH trap.
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helen-damnation
It is a tad unfortunate you took offence at the which was aimed at the 3 pairs of eyes that seem to have been looking at the scenery instead of glancing at the ASI, EICAS or aircraft pitch attitude. I guess that any EICAS caution, without bells and whistles (or cricket bats), would have been ignored on that sunny day in SFO.
It is a tad unfortunate you took offence at the
which was aimed at the 3 pairs of eyes that seem to have been looking at the scenery instead of glancing at the ASI, EICAS or aircraft pitch attitude. I guess that any EICAS caution, without bells and whistles (or cricket bats), would have been ignored on that sunny day in SFO.
Last edited by Sir Richard; 7th Apr 2014 at 13:41. Reason: missing words...corrected
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Av Wk's article
Link to article summarizing the airline's and manufacturer's NTSB submissions (free access):
Asiana And Boeing Spar Over Flight 214 Crash Cause
Asiana And Boeing Spar Over Flight 214 Crash Cause
Last edited by WillowRun 6-3; 8th Apr 2014 at 15:07. Reason: Typo correction
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I've read all the arguments here, and I'm sorry, but...If the PIC of an aircraft, with all of the responsibilities designated to that role, does not know the operation of the basic systems of the aircraft (e.g the fkn autopilot!) he is in Command of, he has no right being there. And is fully responsible for any outcomes resulting from said failings..