LOT B787 grounded over missing parts.
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Barkingmad is right, but it is a shame someone will end up in jail - a shame because that will mean a bunch of people have died - before it is understood.
I have spent a while since heading back from my time in Everett trying to understand how a great company like Boeing who, let's face it, should know a thing or two about how to build an airplane, got in such a mess. I keep coming back to one simple thing, the (too many) layers of program management seemed to divorced from, and disrespectful of, the engineering/production side of the operation.
I worked intensively for eight years on both sides of that divide and saw it on a daily basis. That is the point, it was a divide, this was not a company operating as a coherent team, almost a 'them and us' feeling at times.
So, do I have a solution? Actually yes, and this is my age and background showing, but it is really very simple:
1/ Nobody gets to be a program manager until they have done some real work, in the engineering department, on the line or wherever so they can learn how the thing they are meant to be running actually works (or doesn't).
Industry in general needs to understand that an MBA is valueless in itself and will not make you a manager. If you can add an MBA to your real time-served skills, on the line, engineering, operations or whatever, then an MBA will help you be a much better manager, but it must be that way round.
2/ Top level management must always have a balance of skills, no one discipline (e.g. financial) must dominate, and again the same rules apply, all these folk should be time-served people who have got the scars and the T-shirts!
But, as I tend to sign off, I'm just an engineer with a lot of scars and T-shirts, what would I know?
I have spent a while since heading back from my time in Everett trying to understand how a great company like Boeing who, let's face it, should know a thing or two about how to build an airplane, got in such a mess. I keep coming back to one simple thing, the (too many) layers of program management seemed to divorced from, and disrespectful of, the engineering/production side of the operation.
I worked intensively for eight years on both sides of that divide and saw it on a daily basis. That is the point, it was a divide, this was not a company operating as a coherent team, almost a 'them and us' feeling at times.
So, do I have a solution? Actually yes, and this is my age and background showing, but it is really very simple:
1/ Nobody gets to be a program manager until they have done some real work, in the engineering department, on the line or wherever so they can learn how the thing they are meant to be running actually works (or doesn't).
Industry in general needs to understand that an MBA is valueless in itself and will not make you a manager. If you can add an MBA to your real time-served skills, on the line, engineering, operations or whatever, then an MBA will help you be a much better manager, but it must be that way round.
2/ Top level management must always have a balance of skills, no one discipline (e.g. financial) must dominate, and again the same rules apply, all these folk should be time-served people who have got the scars and the T-shirts!
But, as I tend to sign off, I'm just an engineer with a lot of scars and T-shirts, what would I know?
trying to understand how a great company like Boeing who, let's face it, should know a thing or two about how to build an airplane, got in such a mess.
Fenland, that's probably the most sensible post I've seen in a while.
BAe at Hatfield started to employ graduates for positions of Superintendant and above on the shop floor. Whilst they proved they could study and get a qualification, they couldn't cut the mustard faced with a problem on the line surrounded by fitters effing and blinding. I saw one dissolve under these circumstances and it was a quite sad to see.
BAe at Hatfield started to employ graduates for positions of Superintendant and above on the shop floor. Whilst they proved they could study and get a qualification, they couldn't cut the mustard faced with a problem on the line surrounded by fitters effing and blinding. I saw one dissolve under these circumstances and it was a quite sad to see.
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Cracking post fenland!
For quite a while it has been fashionable for management to believe that they should NOT know about the shop floor, just how to "manage". This is current throughout industry, and made worse by speculative profiteering buy-outs. The result is businesses being run by people who know little or nothing about the company's product or service, then make decisions about how the actual work should be done, and when things go wrong they point the finger at the workforce and award themselves bonuses for sorting out the problem.
When I learned that Boeing management had moved to Chicago to be away from the shop floor, this said it all about modern management.
For quite a while it has been fashionable for management to believe that they should NOT know about the shop floor, just how to "manage". This is current throughout industry, and made worse by speculative profiteering buy-outs. The result is businesses being run by people who know little or nothing about the company's product or service, then make decisions about how the actual work should be done, and when things go wrong they point the finger at the workforce and award themselves bonuses for sorting out the problem.
When I learned that Boeing management had moved to Chicago to be away from the shop floor, this said it all about modern management.
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The result is businesses being run by people who know little or nothing about the company's product or service, then make decisions about how the actual work should be done, and when things go wrong they point the finger at the workforce and award themselves bonuses for sorting out the problem.
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pee, I also wrote "This is current throughout industry" and I quite agree about its strong presence among politicians.
I should add that I am in part a Manager. Or rather a "Self-Manager"!
I should add that I am in part a Manager. Or rather a "Self-Manager"!
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Pee is right. This is generic to any industry and it is in part because of the inability in industry to attach a value to experience (scars & T-shirts) to be able to compete with the perceived value of a tertiary qualification and pay people accordingly.
I've thought about this constantly. I'm 60 next year and as most of you know I'm a fuels guy. The graduates that I mentor know nothing. I mean, really nothing. They know how to work ten varieties of smart phone etc. but I cant teach them..even the bright and willing ones, because there is no operating experience, no context, to anchor anything into. We have our own children of the magenta line too...
They say "you make it look so easy". Maybe, but I've been there on live plant when the panel alarms have gone off and I've sh*t myself wondering what the hell was going on. That's how you learn, and learn to think predictively and its also how you generalize to other situations that helps you cope when it hits the fan.
Fenland said it all: get your stripes first.
I've thought about this constantly. I'm 60 next year and as most of you know I'm a fuels guy. The graduates that I mentor know nothing. I mean, really nothing. They know how to work ten varieties of smart phone etc. but I cant teach them..even the bright and willing ones, because there is no operating experience, no context, to anchor anything into. We have our own children of the magenta line too...
They say "you make it look so easy". Maybe, but I've been there on live plant when the panel alarms have gone off and I've sh*t myself wondering what the hell was going on. That's how you learn, and learn to think predictively and its also how you generalize to other situations that helps you cope when it hits the fan.
Fenland said it all: get your stripes first.
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Quality, Quality, Quality
Fenland is 100% correct. I have a son who has a BSc. in Mechanical Engineering. I am pleased to say that as part of the course, he had to get his hands dirty. He has moved up the management chain, but still can be found on the shop floor when thing go wrong with the plant. Trying to design out the problem and giving a hand to put it back together in an effort to understand the problems the fitters have to face.
A few years ago he was put on a plane to America to look at a plant run by his parent company. He came back very depressed at the I am a manager, you will do what I say instead of listening to what the problem really is and the lack of quality control.
Here in the UK we still are well behind in quality control. One reason is the lack of good engineers and management that just will not listen to ways of improving a product, due to the cost in the short term.
Out of 30 students that started on his mechanical engineering course, only 7 graduated at the end of the 4 years. Alas engineering is not as attractive in the take home pay stakes as other occupations, but it can be very rewarding when you do get it right and you can say I did that.
His hero is James Dyson, just look at how he revolutionized the vacuum cleaner.
A few years ago he was put on a plane to America to look at a plant run by his parent company. He came back very depressed at the I am a manager, you will do what I say instead of listening to what the problem really is and the lack of quality control.
Here in the UK we still are well behind in quality control. One reason is the lack of good engineers and management that just will not listen to ways of improving a product, due to the cost in the short term.
Out of 30 students that started on his mechanical engineering course, only 7 graduated at the end of the 4 years. Alas engineering is not as attractive in the take home pay stakes as other occupations, but it can be very rewarding when you do get it right and you can say I did that.
His hero is James Dyson, just look at how he revolutionized the vacuum cleaner.
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SLF-Flyer and Fenland,
maybe add to the list of problems the fact that 'planes' are referred to as 'products'?
Can someone older than me remember when manufacturers started making 'products' instead of planes, cars, jet engines, mobile phones etc etc...?
maybe add to the list of problems the fact that 'planes' are referred to as 'products'?
Can someone older than me remember when manufacturers started making 'products' instead of planes, cars, jet engines, mobile phones etc etc...?
maybe add to the list of problems the fact that 'planes' are referred to as 'products'?
Though if you had reserved your opprobium for so-called "financial products", or even what the airlines describe as their "product" (i.e. service) then I would have to agree with you.
Oh and the "Production Engineer" has been a respected member of the profession for centuries.
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...and the next.....
it's not just us:
BBC News - Police chief direct recruitment 'to bypass constable rank'
So the way it's been working for the last 180(!) years is now found to be wanting - it looks like no one is learning?
BBC News - Police chief direct recruitment 'to bypass constable rank'
So the way it's been working for the last 180(!) years is now found to be wanting - it looks like no one is learning?
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^ Even the Police! I said earlier that it is fashionable to think that managers do not need to know about what they manage, and that is a pretty extreme example. Clearly things have to get a whole lot worse before these numpties start learning.
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Can someone older than me remember when manufacturers started making 'products' instead of planes
But it is even an aviation term in the regulations, if it is a "product" it is an airplane, helicopter glider etc. If it is "parts and appliances" it is an engine, APU, hydraulic valve, instrument, seat belt etc.
However, the manufacturers have stopped "making" products anyway, they just assemble them these days...
Thread Starter
More poor production?
AI Dreamliner touches down... with a gaping hole - Bangalore Mirror
AI Dreamliner touches down... with a gaping hole - Bangalore Mirror
Tubby,
Some readers of that item in the Bangalore Mirror are arguing that it is a quick-release inspection panel. If it is 8ft x 4ft, it's unlikely to be a hinged one. The holes surrounding the aperture certainly look like those for seating dzus fasteners, or similar.
I'm finding it difficult to establish from the photo which area of the fuselage belly is being shown, but it might be the centre-section falsework/fairing. No doubt some of the B787 engineers on this thread will clarify.
Some readers of that item in the Bangalore Mirror are arguing that it is a quick-release inspection panel. If it is 8ft x 4ft, it's unlikely to be a hinged one. The holes surrounding the aperture certainly look like those for seating dzus fasteners, or similar.
I'm finding it difficult to establish from the photo which area of the fuselage belly is being shown, but it might be the centre-section falsework/fairing. No doubt some of the B787 engineers on this thread will clarify.
Last edited by Chris Scott; 15th Oct 2013 at 14:34.
The holes surrounding the aperture certainly look like those for seating dzus fasteners, or similar.
Dzus fasteners have worked well for the last 80 years, they aren't known for coming undone in flight.
I have a feeling that the reason the panel hasn't been found yet is that it's on a shelf in the corner of the hangar ...
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No doubt some of the B787 engineers on this thread will clarify.
On the grounds that even the most ineffectual walk-round could not have missed an 8 x 4 foot hole I hope there isn't a maintenance chap in Delhi trying hard to remember if he went round and finished all the fasteners after doing the four corners?