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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 7th Jul 2013, 08:56
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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Average line crews have repeatedly proved they are incapable of reliably manually monitoring airspeed when their normal operating mode is ATS or A/T
In my experience, they are capable. They just don't believe it is necessary with modern technology and are too blase to be bothered.

Do you honestly think that none of these qualified 4 pilots observed a speed decay or decided not to speak up ?
Yes, as a matter of fact I believe that it is entirely possible! Whether or not this was the case in this accident remains to be seen.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 08:57
  #342 (permalink)  
 
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Passenger with any sense will indeed take their hand/carry on bags if this is at all possible in the circumstances. They ain't stupid:
They know full well that loosing their personal documentation, passports etc in those bags is going to cause major grief and aggro.
They know loosing their expensive cameras/computer/whatevers etc will start an endless round of argy-bargy with insurance companies. All of whom will try and delay/deny payment - particularly when it's returned "damaged" or mysteriously "lost" and exactly when it was damaged/lost becomes an issue. Then the insurance companies will start demanding purchase receipts for said items...........

Yup, I'd take my stuff as well
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:01
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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AsRAAM and suninmyeyes

Best posts from more than 350 so far.
Congrats.
Actually some of the few ones worth reading...
Guess you guys came very close, let's see.

Last edited by fullforward; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:07.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:03
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Does anybody have a source stating that there really was no PAPI at the time of the accident?
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:05
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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"In our business, Mr. Murphy is always lurking not too far in the background and with these safety enhancers unavailable, Statistics and Probability once again formed an alliance and the dreaded Swiss Cheese holes lined up...." Jasavir

Jasavir, I couldn't agree with you more. By taking both the GS and PAPI out of service at the same time there was an extra hole cut in the cheese that probably needn't have been there.

If this is the case then I hope we can learn the lesson that the temporary removal of a safety barrier might have 'no immediate effect' but it does have an effect.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:06
  #346 (permalink)  
A4

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@dcs810.... so if you're in a burning hull after an accident you'd really take your stuff with you? Have you thought about what the 10 second delay might mean to the people 20 deep behind you? IMHO anyone caught on camera taking possessions from a crashed aircraft where people died due to being unable to get out in time should be prosecuted for manslaughter. It's selfish stupidity at it worst. Shame on you.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:08
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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SFO and their notorious ATC instructed 'slam dunk' visual approaches from downwind have resulted in so many incidents at our airline that it is a regular item in recurent simulator training.
Throw in the lack of visual or electronic glideslope guidance and the holes are lined up. True, you can set up an LNAV/VNAV profile but this requires a bit of heads down time in the box at a busy phase, not easy unless you are expecting the manouvre.
Airport officials are probably hoping no-one mentions the similar incident last month. Ooops, I just did.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:13
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

dsc810 Yup, I'd take my stuff as well
Oh dear ...

Last edited by viribus unitis; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:14.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:14
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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Passenger with any sense will indeed take their hand/carry on bags if this is at all possible in the circumstances. They ain't stupid:
They know full well that loosing their personal documentation, passports etc in those bags is going to cause major grief and aggro.
They know loosing their expensive cameras/computer/whatevers etc will start an endless round of argy-bargy with insurance companies. All of whom will try and delay/deny payment - particularly when it's returned "damaged" or mysteriously "lost" and exactly when it was damaged/lost becomes an issue. Then the insurance companies will start demanding purchase receipts for said items...........

Yup, I'd take my stuff as well
And therein lies the root of that particular problem - utter selfishness and greed.

Last edited by NamelessWonder; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:20.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:16
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Don't you think as the Engines were ripped off and the AC power dropped off line the tracking data would be lost
So anything after the wack on the wall would be invalid data .

Last edited by nitpicker330; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:17.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:17
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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What a strange idea, pilots being required to fly their airplane to a visual landing on a clear blue day....who'd expect that?
Yup. Unfortunately that is the way aviation is going. More automation, more specialisation, less manual flying. So when called upon to go manual and visual, this may be the first time in, well, a couple of years. Suddenly the pressure is on.

Just as an example: old schoolers will use a 3x profile for the approach (300' per mile), with no additions here (sea level). Recently I asked for height call outs for an approach to a sea-level airport (as pre-briefed) and the f/o pulled out his iPhone. He had an App for that!

So I asked for the altitude at 8nm - "err hold on a minute..." (frantic keying)
So I asked for the altitude at 6nm - "err hold on a minute..." (frantic keying)
So I asked for the altitude at 4nm - "err hold on a minute..." (frantic keying)

Never did get an altitude check. This is not rocket science, you know.

Last edited by silverstrata; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:39.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:18
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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ASRAAM

clear blue skies and 4 highly trained pilots at the controls and none is able to scan the speed indicators?

I won't speculate on the flight envelope that led to this situation but the circumstances (charlie weather and 4 pilots) couldn't be better though.

It is certain that situational awareness in the cockpit must have been unusual for the RWY 28L approach to SFO.

Last edited by worldpilot; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:20.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:23
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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NO IT DOES NOT JUSTIFY TAKING YOUR BAGS WITH YOU.

Wow some people.........

If you want to take your bag then:-
1/ sit in a window seat
2/ wait and be the last one off

Because I'm not waiting for you.

In accidents like this "seconds" can make all the difference.

Ever heard of a British Airtours 737 Fire on takeoff in 1985 Manchester and how many died from smoke and not the Fire.....?

Last edited by nitpicker330; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:27.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:25
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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Eclan -
There's no reason why, given enough time, a bag can't be carried by someone with enough coordination to do so.
Taking what's in your lap is one thing - getting a wheel-type bag out of an overhead locker when you are close to the front of a queue to get off a smouldering wreck when several of the other exits are U/S is imbecillic. (look at the woman in blue and all the people behind her!)


Last edited by NamelessWonder; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:28.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:27
  #355 (permalink)  

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"The pilot's name is Lee Jeong-min, and (he is) a veteran pilot with long experience," said the official, who requested anonymity. "Our investigation committee is looking into the accident in San Francisco," he said.
What a fantastic example of leadership (not)......
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:29
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cool banana View Post
...A second pilot on board the aircraft, Lee Kang-kook, had 9,793 hours flying experience and 43 hours on the 777.

From Yahoo Canada
with 43 hours on the 777, this may have been an OE trip (with a check pilot)
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:30
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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What Mode are we in?

Time will tell, but reference to ADIRU Accident Submission will IMHO feature in factors leading to this unfortunate accident.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:30
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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First image I have seen of what appears to be the "missing "engine


Last edited by NamelessWonder; 7th Jul 2013 at 09:34.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:32
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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Swiss cheese.

Assuming many of the above assumptions have some weight, it seems to me that the ethos of our flight safety culture has been to add more layers of cheese by the application of various technologies thus reducing the chances of the holes lining-up. Maybe by doing this we have taken our eye off the ball somewhat and not noticed that the holes in the human factors layers have become significantly bigger.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 09:32
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Wow the Engine went a long way from the fuselage!! Lucky no other Aircraft was collected by it...
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