Close call over NYC...any further info?
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Close call over NYC...any further info?
FAA investigating jets' close call over NYC
June 24, 2013, 8:12 amAP
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NEW YORK (AP) -- The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating why two airplanes came too close to each other over New York City last week.
A Delta Air Lines Boeing 747 arriving at John F. Kennedy International Airport came close to a Shuttle America Embraer E170 departing from LaGuardia Airport at around 2:40 p.m. on June 13, the FAA said in a statement Friday.
The planes were about a half-mile apart horizontally and 200 feet vertically, the FAA said. The required separation is 3 miles horizontally or a thousand feet vertically.
The FAA said the aircraft were "turning away from each other at the point where they lost the required separation." Both aircraft landed safely.
Delta declined to give details, including the number of passengers on board, pending the FAA investigation. The Shuttle America jet was operating as a Delta Connection flight and is equipped for 69 people. The Delta 747 can hold 376 passengers.
Jason Rabinowitz, editor of the aviation news website NYC Aviation, reviewed air traffic control audio and radar tracking data and concluded the pilots and controllers acted professionally in an unusual sets of circumstances brought on by strong winds.
"The traffic controllers did a very good job," he told The Associated Press, noting that traffic is extremely heavy at the two airports. "It was handled very well. ... They did take immediate action to prevent anything from happening in very unusual circumstances."
The close call happened because the Delta jet and an American Airlines flight preparing to land on a parallel runway broke off their approaches to JFK almost simultaneously, he said.
The American flight was instructed by the control tower to make a right turn and attempt another landing. When the Delta pilot seconds later said he needed to circle, the tower told him to make a left, Rabinowitz said.
That left turn put the Delta jet closer to departing traffic from LaGuardia. The Delta pilot then turned right hard, but 747s aren't "the most nimble aircraft in the sky," Rabinowitz wrote, and that allowed the Delta and Shuttle America airplanes to wind up too close to each other.
Rabinowitz said there was a moment the two aircraft were at nearly the same altitude and headed for each other, but the controllers and both pilots were aware of the conflicting traffic and both jets were turning away from each other.
The Delta flight originated in Narita, Japan; the Shuttle America was heading for Jacksonville, Fla.
June 24, 2013, 8:12 amAP
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NEW YORK (AP) -- The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating why two airplanes came too close to each other over New York City last week.
A Delta Air Lines Boeing 747 arriving at John F. Kennedy International Airport came close to a Shuttle America Embraer E170 departing from LaGuardia Airport at around 2:40 p.m. on June 13, the FAA said in a statement Friday.
The planes were about a half-mile apart horizontally and 200 feet vertically, the FAA said. The required separation is 3 miles horizontally or a thousand feet vertically.
The FAA said the aircraft were "turning away from each other at the point where they lost the required separation." Both aircraft landed safely.
Delta declined to give details, including the number of passengers on board, pending the FAA investigation. The Shuttle America jet was operating as a Delta Connection flight and is equipped for 69 people. The Delta 747 can hold 376 passengers.
Jason Rabinowitz, editor of the aviation news website NYC Aviation, reviewed air traffic control audio and radar tracking data and concluded the pilots and controllers acted professionally in an unusual sets of circumstances brought on by strong winds.
"The traffic controllers did a very good job," he told The Associated Press, noting that traffic is extremely heavy at the two airports. "It was handled very well. ... They did take immediate action to prevent anything from happening in very unusual circumstances."
The close call happened because the Delta jet and an American Airlines flight preparing to land on a parallel runway broke off their approaches to JFK almost simultaneously, he said.
The American flight was instructed by the control tower to make a right turn and attempt another landing. When the Delta pilot seconds later said he needed to circle, the tower told him to make a left, Rabinowitz said.
That left turn put the Delta jet closer to departing traffic from LaGuardia. The Delta pilot then turned right hard, but 747s aren't "the most nimble aircraft in the sky," Rabinowitz wrote, and that allowed the Delta and Shuttle America airplanes to wind up too close to each other.
Rabinowitz said there was a moment the two aircraft were at nearly the same altitude and headed for each other, but the controllers and both pilots were aware of the conflicting traffic and both jets were turning away from each other.
The Delta flight originated in Narita, Japan; the Shuttle America was heading for Jacksonville, Fla.
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More detail (less sensationalistic): Close call between Delta 747 and Shuttle America E170 - what really happened?
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Very well handled I would say reading this report ( if factual) .
Ensuring separation of Go arounds is one of the most difficult thing to do from an ATC point of view as everyone is on different fequencies.
Ensuring separation of Go arounds is one of the most difficult thing to do from an ATC point of view as everyone is on different fequencies.
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The reports above suggest that the Delta 747 and JFK tower knew what was happening and had it all under control. Was the Embraer and LGA similarly aware of what was happening? Can't see a reference to that.
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cwatters:
Not at all the case. IMC.
JFK Tower already had a go-around in progress on 4R. DAL 747 decided to go around on 4L. Instead of climbing him runway heading he turned him left to heading 250 into LGA airspace. That would have been okay had the tower kept the 747's left turn going to 150 or so. But on heading 250 he was pointed directly at the just airborne commuter jet. The separation got down to 300 vertical and 1/2 mile horizontal.
That is zip in the clouds and pointed nose to nose. Also, it was more or less over a ballpark with a baseball game in progress, FWTW.
This is all from a New York controller on another forum.
The reports above suggest that the Delta 747 and JFK tower knew what was happening and had it all under control. Was the Embraer and LGA similarly aware of what was happening? Can't see a reference to that.
JFK Tower already had a go-around in progress on 4R. DAL 747 decided to go around on 4L. Instead of climbing him runway heading he turned him left to heading 250 into LGA airspace. That would have been okay had the tower kept the 747's left turn going to 150 or so. But on heading 250 he was pointed directly at the just airborne commuter jet. The separation got down to 300 vertical and 1/2 mile horizontal.
That is zip in the clouds and pointed nose to nose. Also, it was more or less over a ballpark with a baseball game in progress, FWTW.
This is all from a New York controller on another forum.
I take away three things from this incident:
Perhaps the least obvious is that, given the recent spate of approaches pressed to the limit with embarrassing consequences, here were two crews (the JFK traffic) that were willing to push the TOGA button and break off landings they decided were not going to work. That's a positive sign.
As to the main event, my first question is why LGA and JFK were using what amounted to "crossing runways" (13 at LGA, 4L/R at JFK). I see references to strong and gusty winds, but no reference to wind direction.
If the LGA and JFK flights had been operating in parallel (all using runways 13 or 4), the conflict would never have developed. And presumably the winds, whatever they were, favored one or the other.
That is a question, not a criticism, since I am certainly not privy to the other operational considerations that NYC controllers have to juggle, nor their internal procedures and guidelines for handling them.
Finally, LGA and JFK, due to their proximity and heavy traffic, will always be a "flying circus" waiting to happen. It is actually rather amazing it happens so rarely. The London complex (EGLL/EGLC/EGKK) has a similar problem, although their runways are always aligned, which at least makes the potential conflicts obvious, repeatable, and something that can be planned for.
I wonder whether LGA and JFK will eventually need to be considered - from the ATC point of view - one "superairport," with a master "tower" more tightly coordinating takeoffs and final approaches.
Perhaps the least obvious is that, given the recent spate of approaches pressed to the limit with embarrassing consequences, here were two crews (the JFK traffic) that were willing to push the TOGA button and break off landings they decided were not going to work. That's a positive sign.
As to the main event, my first question is why LGA and JFK were using what amounted to "crossing runways" (13 at LGA, 4L/R at JFK). I see references to strong and gusty winds, but no reference to wind direction.
If the LGA and JFK flights had been operating in parallel (all using runways 13 or 4), the conflict would never have developed. And presumably the winds, whatever they were, favored one or the other.
That is a question, not a criticism, since I am certainly not privy to the other operational considerations that NYC controllers have to juggle, nor their internal procedures and guidelines for handling them.
Finally, LGA and JFK, due to their proximity and heavy traffic, will always be a "flying circus" waiting to happen. It is actually rather amazing it happens so rarely. The London complex (EGLL/EGLC/EGKK) has a similar problem, although their runways are always aligned, which at least makes the potential conflicts obvious, repeatable, and something that can be planned for.
I wonder whether LGA and JFK will eventually need to be considered - from the ATC point of view - one "superairport," with a master "tower" more tightly coordinating takeoffs and final approaches.
Well, it was some time ago and maybe things have changed but I was based at JFK for three years and it was not unusual for them to be using three runways at once.
For example, landings on 22L, take-offs on 22R and landings on 13L.
For example, landings on 22L, take-offs on 22R and landings on 13L.
Don't forget Northolt...
I was based at JFK for three years and it was not unusual for them to be using three runways at once.
For example, landings on 22L, take-offs on 22R and landings on 13L.
For example, landings on 22L, take-offs on 22R and landings on 13L.
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Why 2 simultaneous go-arounds on parallel runways? Just curious. I am sure all will be revealed after the enquiry, so my question may be premature, but I am interested in why this took place.
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Why 2 simultaneous go-arounds on parallel runways?
I wonder whether LGA and JFK will eventually need to be considered - from the ATC point of view - one "superairport," with a master "tower" more tightly coordinating takeoffs and final approaches.
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The London complex (EGLL/EGLC/EGKK) has a similar problem
You have 40km runway to runway between Gatwick and Heathrow, about 34km Between Heathrow and City. And mostly same alignment of runways, while you have 17km between JFK and LGA and crossing runways.
That's half / less than half the space. Can't compare the 2 (or 3)!!!
In addition to the close proximity of JFK to LGA, EWR is quite nearby and the busiest GA airport in the world (TEB) lies between them! Add in FMG and HPN for good measure and it's easy to understand why NY TRACON has little time for idle chit-chat. No doubt at least one FAA controller is going to take a hit for having a separation deal. That's just how the FAA usually rolls...
Business Aviation Airports: A Contrast to the Commercial Airline Hubs | Legislative & Regulatory Issues | NBAA - National Business Aviation Association
TEB is busy, but it isn't close to being the busiest.
TEB is busy, but it isn't close to being the busiest.
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A New "Expert?"
OMG! Now #AvGeek/bloggers (Rabinowitz) are considered ATC experts? I must have missed the memo about Jason's formal training and extensive experience in the busy NE corridor. Lots of possible 'expert' sources to consult and quote, by a geek/blogger (one of the very best, for sure) may not be the best choice. 
I think we can do a tiny bit better with our 'expert' sources.
I think we can do a tiny bit better with our 'expert' sources.
TEB is busy, but it isn't close to being the busiest.
I guess it just seems like it. Having been based at VNY for many years, it seemed busy, but rarely would any serious delays occur due to traffic. East coast airport ops just seem "busier" to me I guess.
