Close call over NYC...any further info?
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Apt Film Title.
It's known as "Pushing Tin", and this situation will continue at NY, Paris and other crowded 'spaces until the accident, as there's too much money to be made in the meantime.
No bent metal & blood means no Tombstone Imperative, so nothing will change until that event.
Doubtless the smooth suits who run the worst-case scenarios are comfortable with the odds of this scene producing a collision?
P S. Why am I expected to maintain a HEADING post go-around when my flightpath is more reliable if I'm asked to maintain a TRACK? ATC may not be aware of where the wind is taking me and this could generate the example of the NYC incident.
No bent metal & blood means no Tombstone Imperative, so nothing will change until that event.
Doubtless the smooth suits who run the worst-case scenarios are comfortable with the odds of this scene producing a collision?
P S. Why am I expected to maintain a HEADING post go-around when my flightpath is more reliable if I'm asked to maintain a TRACK? ATC may not be aware of where the wind is taking me and this could generate the example of the NYC incident.
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a much aired topic on PPRune and each time we try it seems ATC are split 50/50 as to whether they expect us to shoot off downwind or track the centreline like gods.
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@Barkingmad
You are asked to maintain a heading because the ANSPs including FAA do not appear to have really understood RNP. A missed approach should follow a standard RNP procedure that is already setup in the FMC.
Why am I expected to maintain a HEADING post go-around when my flightpath is more reliable if I'm asked to maintain a TRACK? ATC may not be aware of where the wind is taking me and this could generate the example of the NYC incident. 
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<<Why am I expected to maintain a HEADING post go-around when my flightpath is more reliable if I'm asked to maintain a TRACK? ATC may not be aware of where the wind is taking me and this could generate the example of the NYC incident. >>
You are told to fly headings precisely because ATC know the wind and what it's effect is going to be. That's how I and my colleagues functioned all the time I was in the job, both as a tower and radar controller.
You are told to fly headings precisely because ATC know the wind and what it's effect is going to be. That's how I and my colleagues functioned all the time I was in the job, both as a tower and radar controller.
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Originally Posted by HD
You are told to fly headings precisely because ATC know the wind and what it's effect is going to be. That's how I and my colleagues functioned all the time I was in the job, both as a tower and radar controller.
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P S. Why am I expected to maintain a HEADING post go-around when my flightpath is more reliable if I'm asked to maintain a TRACK? ATC may not be aware of where the wind is taking me and this could generate the example of the NYC incident.
You are told to fly headings precisely because ATC know the wind and what it's effect is going to be. That's how I and my colleagues functioned all the time I was in the job, both as a tower and radar controller.
Last edited by ATCast; 25th Jun 2013 at 19:08.
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caber:
Not to mention strong winds increase in velocity and shift direction as the departure climb increases. Then, there is the issue of IMC.
Maintaining centerline is one thing, but not every go around or departure involves tracking the centerline.
On a GA, flying a track in a fairly basic aeroplane would need guidance, e.g. the loc beam from the opposite runway - example: backtracking Kai Tak 31 loc on take off from 13 through the Lei ye Mun gap. Anything else is an informed guess - which will usually be good enough.
The heading given after missed approach will be to keep you separated from other aircraft either departed before you, or from another runway. Headings are used in the same fashion as radar controllers use headings to maintain separation. If there was no pertinent traffic you will fly the published missed approach.
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Missed approaches are caused by all kinds of reasons. Loss of visibility, loss of navigation capability, wind shear and unstabilized approaches so not all aircraft on a missed approach can fly a track, all have a compass. One aircraft flying a track and the other flying a heading on parallel runways isn't going to work. I was the last flight into PHX one night in an MD80 with an approaching thunderstorm using parallel runway approaches. As I cleared the runway all power went out to ATC, runway lights, taxiway light, everything. It took several minutes for backup power to come on and all arriving flights were going around because of no nav guidance. They were all saying we can't do the missed approach because of weather but no response so they just turned away from the storm with no ATC. The ILS was down too so how could they fly a track if the thunderstorm would have allowed them to?
bigjames,
On 13 departure the 31 backbeam was specified as the nav aid to track through the gap. The TH would be less accurate. IIRC, the TD was off to the left a bit.
On a GA the TH was used for tracking. I knew someone from another airline who forgot to turn right on the IGS GA - frightened the c**p out of the local controller as he went over the tower!
On 13 departure the 31 backbeam was specified as the nav aid to track through the gap. The TH would be less accurate. IIRC, the TD was off to the left a bit.
On a GA the TH was used for tracking. I knew someone from another airline who forgot to turn right on the IGS GA - frightened the c**p out of the local controller as he went over the tower!
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Just found an old (2005) thread which is possibly still relevant.
2 posts copied here
1 From 'Asia'
DEPARTURE TRACKING
Where a SID or departure clearance specifies ‘maintain runway heading’ it is implicit that a drift correction
will be applied in order that runway track is maintained.
The exceptions are USA and Canada, where the requirement is that runway heading be flown without
drift correction.
2 from 'the far east'
This was done to death in a similar thread about a year ago. It's down to whether the country you are flying in uses PANSOPS or TERPS. PANSOPS specifies 'maintain runway track' after departure or go around, TERPS specifies 'maintain runway heading', i.e. no drift correction! This does sound strange, especially somewhere like Taipei where you are noticably drifting toards the mountains on a cross wind departure, it is correct.
The countries which use TERPS are North, Central and South American countries (inc Canada), Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and military airfields in the Phillipines. The rest of the world uses PANSOPS, although the Asian countries which use TERPS are planning to swap to PANSOPS in the future. If you're unsure, check the margins of your Jepp plates (if you use them). They will tell you.
Confusing, ain't it? I understand 'maintain runway heading' is no longer an approved ATC instruction in the UK?
2 posts copied here
1 From 'Asia'
DEPARTURE TRACKING
Where a SID or departure clearance specifies ‘maintain runway heading’ it is implicit that a drift correction
will be applied in order that runway track is maintained.
The exceptions are USA and Canada, where the requirement is that runway heading be flown without
drift correction.
2 from 'the far east'
This was done to death in a similar thread about a year ago. It's down to whether the country you are flying in uses PANSOPS or TERPS. PANSOPS specifies 'maintain runway track' after departure or go around, TERPS specifies 'maintain runway heading', i.e. no drift correction! This does sound strange, especially somewhere like Taipei where you are noticably drifting toards the mountains on a cross wind departure, it is correct.
The countries which use TERPS are North, Central and South American countries (inc Canada), Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and military airfields in the Phillipines. The rest of the world uses PANSOPS, although the Asian countries which use TERPS are planning to swap to PANSOPS in the future. If you're unsure, check the margins of your Jepp plates (if you use them). They will tell you.
Confusing, ain't it? I understand 'maintain runway heading' is no longer an approved ATC instruction in the UK?
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We all know the difference between heading and track.
If Mr. Controller says: "Maintain runway heading..." is there any doubt? (Also because he may have said, or is saying, or will say the same instruction to a nearby traffic.
: I've always had installed the rearview mirror on my liner.
"CHILDREN OF MAGENTA LINE" Again?
I confirm that departing from Kai Tak Rwy 13 we had to follow the 31 Rwy Back beam (and there was a reason!)
If Mr. Controller says: "Maintain runway heading..." is there any doubt? (Also because he may have said, or is saying, or will say the same instruction to a nearby traffic.
ATCast - regardless of 'gizmos', any pilot who cannot maintain runway centre-line in a cross-wind simply should not be in the seat.
25th Jun 2013 19:07
25th Jun 2013 19:07
"CHILDREN OF MAGENTA LINE" Again?
I confirm that departing from Kai Tak Rwy 13 we had to follow the 31 Rwy Back beam (and there was a reason!)
I really don't understand the problem.
Runway heading means exactly that.
You are in very controlled airspace so any attempt at creative interpretation could leave your nearest and dearest in deep trouble when the lawyers prove that you did not follow instructions when the subsequent collision occured.
Having gone-around at Kennedy twice in my three years there, I certainly did not think that being "creative" was an option.
It was ESSENTIAL to do exactly what the man told you to do and quickly.
Runway heading means exactly that.
You are in very controlled airspace so any attempt at creative interpretation could leave your nearest and dearest in deep trouble when the lawyers prove that you did not follow instructions when the subsequent collision occured.
Having gone-around at Kennedy twice in my three years there, I certainly did not think that being "creative" was an option.
It was ESSENTIAL to do exactly what the man told you to do and quickly.
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...and apparently correct for TERPS/Kennedy - no drift applied, but in 'Asia'?
Does anyone know? Any 'Asian boffins' around?
Where a SID or departure clearance specifies ‘maintain runway heading’ it is implicit that a drift correction
will be applied in order that runway track is maintained.
will be applied in order that runway track is maintained.