avherald: Pilots fired for letting pax take pilot seat
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Interesting too that there is a rest of the world, there is airlines and GA, there is private and commercial, there is pre and post 9-11, etc, etc.
Interesting, isn't it?
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There you have it, non approved persons. Some company's authorize the captain to authorize people to visit the flightdeck. As such the visitors are approved!
Last edited by pb365; 18th Jun 2013 at 09:46.
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Not a good way to end your career. I have seen it done a few times but unless it is your retirement flight it isn't worth it and then you have to protect your FO. I know some that have.
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One was our chief pilot who had his friend in the jump seat that worked for Delta. I asked him what airplane he flew and said the DC10. Finally the truth came out that he was his neighbor. I have to admit my retirement flight was also a bit different. What the hell, you are done at midnight so what can they do? Fire you.
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Access to crew seats for passengers
It was, and possibly still is, policy for certain mainland North-European scheduled and charter airlines to allow revenue passengers to occupy available cabin crew/cockpit jump seats, in the event of overbookings. This would have to be approved by the captain and/or the cabin crew chief, whichever was applicable, on the occasion. Both had the right of refusal, for which there was no comeback or negative opinion, in the event that they exercised same. These carriers carried insurance to cover this eventuality.
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pb365, as ATC with appropriate I/D, even though flying as revenue pax and with no advance coordination, I have been invited to the FD by the Captain at his own initiative. I'm not going to name the airlines but will confirm that all 3 companies I have had the experience with are respected European majors. I don't think that their captains would risk their careers for little old me. It's down to company policy. Recently, again on a major Western European carrier, I noted a young lady on the FD for take-off. She returned to her seat in the cruise. Turned out she was the F/O's girlfriend. And , even to my surprise because we were inbound to LAX, she went back for the approach and landing.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 24th Jun 2013 at 19:07.
EU OPS 1.1235 states:-
"An operator shall ensure that all appropriate personnel are familiar, and comply, with the relevant requirements of the national security programmes of the State of the operator."
and 1.1255(c) states:
"In all aeroplanes which are equipped with a flight crew compartment door in accordance with subparagraph (b):
1. this door shall be closed prior to engine start for take-off and will be locked when required by security procedure or the commander, until engine shut down after landing, except when deemed necessary for authorised persons to access or egress in compliance with National Aviation Security Programme; (NASP)"
The UK NASP has since been superseded:
This initiative led to the adoption of framework Regulation (EC) No 2320/2002 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 December 2002 establishing common rules in the field of civil aviation security and thus provided the basis for allowing harmonisation of aviation security rules across the European Union with binding effect.
That regulatory framework has since been overhauled by a new framework, in full effect from 29 April 2010, as laid down by Regulation (EC) No 300/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 2008 on common rules in the field of civil aviation security and repealing Regulation (EC) No 2320/2002 which states:
"An operator shall ensure that all appropriate personnel are familiar, and comply, with the relevant requirements of the national security programmes of the State of the operator."
and 1.1255(c) states:
"In all aeroplanes which are equipped with a flight crew compartment door in accordance with subparagraph (b):
1. this door shall be closed prior to engine start for take-off and will be locked when required by security procedure or the commander, until engine shut down after landing, except when deemed necessary for authorised persons to access or egress in compliance with National Aviation Security Programme; (NASP)"
The UK NASP has since been superseded:
This initiative led to the adoption of framework Regulation (EC) No 2320/2002 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 December 2002 establishing common rules in the field of civil aviation security and thus provided the basis for allowing harmonisation of aviation security rules across the European Union with binding effect.
That regulatory framework has since been overhauled by a new framework, in full effect from 29 April 2010, as laid down by Regulation (EC) No 300/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 2008 on common rules in the field of civil aviation security and repealing Regulation (EC) No 2320/2002 which states:
10. IN-FLIGHT SECURITY MEASURES
1. Without prejudice to the applicable aviation safety rules:
(a) unauthorised persons shall be prevented from entering the flight crew compartment during a flight;
1. Without prejudice to the applicable aviation safety rules:
(a) unauthorised persons shall be prevented from entering the flight crew compartment during a flight;
Paxing All Over The World
bubbers44
This is not personal but they might make an example of your ex-employer who could be pulled up for allowing their staff to do such things. They would then have no choice but to lean on every member of staff for the future.
OK, so some of the fun has gone out of the business. Well, when I was in telecommunications in the 1980s - we had some great larks as we got the job done. But now, it's all rules and punishment and I'm happy doing something else.
What the hell, you are done at midnight so what can they do? Fire you.
OK, so some of the fun has gone out of the business. Well, when I was in telecommunications in the 1980s - we had some great larks as we got the job done. But now, it's all rules and punishment and I'm happy doing something else.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
If the infringement occured while you were still employed, they could argue gross negligence or gross misconduct. Take a close look at your pension contract; it could have implications. The judiciary might also want to take action, even against an ex-pilot, to discourage future breaches.
Cabin crew asked me to sign a card they had cobbled up for a lady on her birthday. I refused to sign it until I'd seen her - bring her up. ( pre-9/11)
We got married 6 months later.
(Nb Flight deck visits can be bad for your health ! )
We got married 6 months later.
(Nb Flight deck visits can be bad for your health ! )
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Quote:
There you have it, non approved persons. Some company's authorize the captain to authorize people to visit the flightdeck. As such the visitors are approved!
Care to tell us who?
As a 50 year glider and towpilot and instructor in my gliding club, I like to think that the captain, who is also a member of my club and checked out for flying gliders by ,myself,would be in a position to invite me on the flight deck ! Or are we so blind as to not see the difference ?
There you have it, non approved persons. Some company's authorize the captain to authorize people to visit the flightdeck. As such the visitors are approved!
Care to tell us who?
As a 50 year glider and towpilot and instructor in my gliding club, I like to think that the captain, who is also a member of my club and checked out for flying gliders by ,myself,would be in a position to invite me on the flight deck ! Or are we so blind as to not see the difference ?
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Sadly not!
If a country forbids non-authorized persons (as that specific country defines such persons,) from being on the flight deck whilst operating within it's airspace or territory, then it doesn't matter what the captain or even the airline itself may think, the prohibition is in effect. If a captain or company elects to operate in violation of that instruction, they do so under the threat of penalty and sanction.
If a country forbids non-authorized persons (as that specific country defines such persons,) from being on the flight deck whilst operating within it's airspace or territory, then it doesn't matter what the captain or even the airline itself may think, the prohibition is in effect. If a captain or company elects to operate in violation of that instruction, they do so under the threat of penalty and sanction.
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Air Canada
Many years ago, I brought a lot of work with me in a flight with Air Canada. I changed my assigned seat to a row of unoccupied seats as I needed a lot of room to spread my papers. It was before laptop era.
During the flight, Air Canada made an unannounded promotion for its Aeroplan plan. The captain was to draw a seat number, and the winner would get 15,000 points worth a domestic flight AND an invitation from the Captain to sit on the jump seat at the back of the cockpit, behind the FO and the Captain, during landing time.
I did not pay attention as I never win a loto draw and I did not know my new seat number. I only realized that the Captain has drawn my new seat when the CC came to confirm that I won the draw !
Take home lesson : change seat. Or bring a lot of work during a flight.
During the flight, Air Canada made an unannounded promotion for its Aeroplan plan. The captain was to draw a seat number, and the winner would get 15,000 points worth a domestic flight AND an invitation from the Captain to sit on the jump seat at the back of the cockpit, behind the FO and the Captain, during landing time.
I did not pay attention as I never win a loto draw and I did not know my new seat number. I only realized that the Captain has drawn my new seat when the CC came to confirm that I won the draw !
Take home lesson : change seat. Or bring a lot of work during a flight.
Last edited by BayBong; 30th Jun 2013 at 05:32.
.........Take home lesson : change seat..........
Travelling after retirement I was once assigned something like seat 86Z, and jocularly remarked that I didn't know that the seat rows went back that far ! The female clerk sensed that I knew more than the average punter and started asking questions, which ended in a do-you-remember-so-and-so exchange of mutual friends within the airline from way back, that we had both known.
She then asked for my boarding card back and assigned me something like 20 A instead.
In the departure lounge a Mr. XXXX was paged, and told his seat had been changed - he got my 86 Z !!!
It isn't what you know ( or pay ), it's who you know. ( 'twas always thus )
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Can't say how many times I got to sit in either seat during cruise up to 2001. All it took was a polite FA request and excited puppy eyes once the FO/Capt came back to take me up front. Just like my Grandpa regaled me with stories of travelling in Sikorsky flying boats, I guess I will have to entertain my kids and their kids with pictures of me in the front seat with the Sahara or the Rockies stretching to the horizon, 37000 ft below. That's a room they will never know, unless they decide to make it their job.
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No, I forced my FO to say that is against company policy captain and I said it is safe and it is my retirement flight and I heard your advice. He was covered because I took full responsibility for a minor policy deviation. My FO was a neighbor and friend so was not going to let him get involved if a FA had a complaint filed. They were cool so no problem but he was covered because I wouldn't have put him in trouble. All of the FA's liked me because I was married to one and treated them right or I would hear from it from my wife. Trust me!