Ryaniar - 2 Tail strikes in a week
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Unless I skimmed this a bit quick, not one person has questioned if the aircraft is maybe just a little susceptible...
I currently fly the Q400, which as many will know is a stretch of a stretch of a stretch. And they want to stretch it further.
All this stretching puts the tail very close to the deck on rotation and especially landing. It's also well known, a firm touchdown, with a heavy load, on a cambered runway, with the tyres worn to limits CAN produce a tail strike at roughly 7 degrees nose up.
Considering we can be at 5 degrees NU as we cross the threshold, this doesn't leave much margin, and is why some guys prefer to use a max-flap landing, even on long runways. The F35 approach results in some 5 degrees lower, and is why on some approaches we are significantly nose down at the threshold. Even more so with icing increments applied.
So, is it maybe the aircraft? The -800 is also a stretch of a stretch, and the margins must be severely eroded. A handful of other factors, and your streaking your pants along with the runway
I currently fly the Q400, which as many will know is a stretch of a stretch of a stretch. And they want to stretch it further.
All this stretching puts the tail very close to the deck on rotation and especially landing. It's also well known, a firm touchdown, with a heavy load, on a cambered runway, with the tyres worn to limits CAN produce a tail strike at roughly 7 degrees nose up.
Considering we can be at 5 degrees NU as we cross the threshold, this doesn't leave much margin, and is why some guys prefer to use a max-flap landing, even on long runways. The F35 approach results in some 5 degrees lower, and is why on some approaches we are significantly nose down at the threshold. Even more so with icing increments applied.
So, is it maybe the aircraft? The -800 is also a stretch of a stretch, and the margins must be severely eroded. A handful of other factors, and your streaking your pants along with the runway
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Tail clearance is 20 inches with flap 5 and 13 inches with flap 1. Boeing state that the tailstrike pitch attitude is 11 degrees .
I have a few thousand hours flying on the 800 and thankfully have had no incidents but these things do happen from time to time.
Boeing are quite clear on the correct technique and I have always tried to stick to that, but again with these incidents there could of been other factors. It shouldn't happen with the correct technique and that's about the size of it.
I have a few thousand hours flying on the 800 and thankfully have had no incidents but these things do happen from time to time.
Boeing are quite clear on the correct technique and I have always tried to stick to that, but again with these incidents there could of been other factors. It shouldn't happen with the correct technique and that's about the size of it.
Last edited by go around flaps15; 23rd Apr 2013 at 22:12.
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@BOAC let me answer that for you by quoting what I wrote in full (as opposed to your partial (and possibly subjective) quote):
So no I didn't read post 30... But what the hell does it even matter?
EasyJet's tailstrike happened after a bounced landing, I'm not sure if that should even be discussed here. Don't know of it is the only one. Who cares anyway, 
happens.
happens.
Last edited by 737Jock; 23rd Apr 2013 at 22:53.
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Shouldn't be any tailstrikes, FULL STOP!
To reduce the risk of re-occurrence, events like this have to be understood. And one of the big questions is what was different with these flights from all the others that have occurred over the past few years? And even if the real facts emerge and resulting lessons are taken on board and become fully absorbed by the system, the risk will only reduce. It will never, ever become zero.
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antonov09 - I think you will find that my figures are correct regarding fleet sizes and numbers. And yes I do believe you can compare a 16 year safety record with a 29 year one. To make it easy for you why not ignore the first 13 years and then do the maths. Bearing in mind that for most of those years Ryanair had a combination of Bandeirantes, HS 748s, BAC One-Elevens and ATR-42s. From memory the first 737-200 only arrived in 1994. I am, however, grateful for Cough's AAIB report related to an easyJet 737 tailstrike back in 2000, which I was not aware of. That makes 2 that I know of in the Company's history. As others have pointed out, Ryanair did not exist in any meaningful sense until MOL got involved in 1991, and even then it was a tiny outfit, so to talk of 29 years of operations is just codswallop.
I have said this before and been much criticised for it, but at some stage Ryanair may have to look at an alternative method of controlling negative comments about them other than threatening legal action. I would have thought that internally Ryanair must be somewhat anxious about 2 tail strikes in a week - there again maybe each one was just 'one of those things'.
I have said this before and been much criticised for it, but at some stage Ryanair may have to look at an alternative method of controlling negative comments about them other than threatening legal action. I would have thought that internally Ryanair must be somewhat anxious about 2 tail strikes in a week - there again maybe each one was just 'one of those things'.
White Knight:
"May I suggest that those figures are SHOCKINGLY CRAP........Shouldn't be any tailstrikes, FULL STOP!"
I am a little bit confused (not difficult). It was my understanding that you fly for EK?
Now I cannot be bothered looking up all of the details (for that is one of the joys of being retired) but was it not EK that took out the approach lighting at the other end of the runway on take-off in South Africa and then managed a repeat performance in Australia?
Perhaps that doesn't count as a tailstrike in your books?
Please do correct me if I am wrong and I will happily apologise.
"May I suggest that those figures are SHOCKINGLY CRAP........Shouldn't be any tailstrikes, FULL STOP!"
I am a little bit confused (not difficult). It was my understanding that you fly for EK?
Now I cannot be bothered looking up all of the details (for that is one of the joys of being retired) but was it not EK that took out the approach lighting at the other end of the runway on take-off in South Africa and then managed a repeat performance in Australia?
Perhaps that doesn't count as a tailstrike in your books?
Please do correct me if I am wrong and I will happily apologise.
White Knight:
Since I didn't have very much to do this afternoon(that is another joy of being retired) I decided to do a bit of digging.
The two events that I referred to were:
EK764 Jo'burg to Dubai A343 A6-ERN 09 Apr 04
EK407 Melbourne to Dubai A345 A6-ERG 20 Mar 09
Both of which almost resulted in huge loss of life.
As to your working for EK;
A quick search on Pprune reveals a multitude of admissions that you work for Emirates including one on "EK Advice Please" on 21 Aug 12:
"A happy man joins Emirates. A happier man has left Emirates"
Your response was "Depends on your POV.......So I left BA."
It is only a suggestion but have you considered fitting your computer keyboard with a breathalyser?
Let he who casts the first stone.........
Since I didn't have very much to do this afternoon(that is another joy of being retired) I decided to do a bit of digging.
The two events that I referred to were:
EK764 Jo'burg to Dubai A343 A6-ERN 09 Apr 04
EK407 Melbourne to Dubai A345 A6-ERG 20 Mar 09
Both of which almost resulted in huge loss of life.
As to your working for EK;
A quick search on Pprune reveals a multitude of admissions that you work for Emirates including one on "EK Advice Please" on 21 Aug 12:
"A happy man joins Emirates. A happier man has left Emirates"
Your response was "Depends on your POV.......So I left BA."
It is only a suggestion but have you considered fitting your computer keyboard with a breathalyser?
Let he who casts the first stone.........
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In absolute terms a tail strike is not a disaster unless you make it one by going on to pressurise the aircraft, i think Ryanair will be concerned about any trend that puts at risk their business, they more than say BA are very much at risk over public perception of how safe they are, thankfully we are not talking about a Lion air type of event here, MOL is very canny to imply that he is cheap because of an efficient operation not because they cut corners on safety and that mantra must be repeated at every opportunity, to be clear they don't cut corners on safety, their pilots are well trained and the maintenance is first class, they have a low cost base as a result of a ruthless approach to all costs.
There is of course a large body of people including me who would love to see MOL brought down peg or two, but not a crash for that does the industry no good at all, but yes I would love to see some body in the EU take them to the cleaners over their employment methods, but i suspect MOL is light years ahead of the slow grind of EU regulators, the more likely is that the axe will fall on the pilot workforce over tax & NI payments or lack of
There is of course a large body of people including me who would love to see MOL brought down peg or two, but not a crash for that does the industry no good at all, but yes I would love to see some body in the EU take them to the cleaners over their employment methods, but i suspect MOL is light years ahead of the slow grind of EU regulators, the more likely is that the axe will fall on the pilot workforce over tax & NI payments or lack of
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I believe LNIDA is correct. And I'm sure RYR (whose lawyers we now know read every word where their name is mentioned) also believe that they are doing all they can to maintain what is an enviable safety record. But I'll suggest that there is a limit as to how much RYR can achieve with their current corporate culture.
I'll pose a few questions. If you worked for RYR -
1. ...do you think you could personally explain to Mr. O'Leary that you delayed a flight because you weren't satisfied with something that in hindsight you should have known about?
2. ...as a member of cabin crew who, because of a distraction, forgot to report a cabin fault, which resulted in a departure delay; what would happen to you?
3. ...as a ground handling agent, what do you think would happen if you were responsible for a loading error? Would you be paid for that turnaround?
4. ...would you find them supportive to your request for compassionate leave following the death of a close relative?
5. ...and had, two level bust in week; what would happen to you?
I know a few RYR pilots, both current and former and they are good operators. They have been well trained and perform to a high standard. But they aren't the ones to worry about. It's the less able pilots. It's the handling agents who have problems hanging on to good staff. It's the cabin crew who are on a final warning for reporting late. And it's when one of these "makes a mistake" or has a "bad day" it will probably go un-mentioned.
To move forward, RYR has to shake off it's hard nosed, cash is king macho attitude. Failure to do so means they will not have a worthwhile reporting culture which in turn means they will not have the information they need to in order to effectively manage their operation. And to quote the last two sentences of a Donald Rumsfeld quotation: "But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know." and these are the things that bite your bum!
PM
I'll pose a few questions. If you worked for RYR -
1. ...do you think you could personally explain to Mr. O'Leary that you delayed a flight because you weren't satisfied with something that in hindsight you should have known about?
2. ...as a member of cabin crew who, because of a distraction, forgot to report a cabin fault, which resulted in a departure delay; what would happen to you?
3. ...as a ground handling agent, what do you think would happen if you were responsible for a loading error? Would you be paid for that turnaround?
4. ...would you find them supportive to your request for compassionate leave following the death of a close relative?
5. ...and had, two level bust in week; what would happen to you?
I know a few RYR pilots, both current and former and they are good operators. They have been well trained and perform to a high standard. But they aren't the ones to worry about. It's the less able pilots. It's the handling agents who have problems hanging on to good staff. It's the cabin crew who are on a final warning for reporting late. And it's when one of these "makes a mistake" or has a "bad day" it will probably go un-mentioned.
To move forward, RYR has to shake off it's hard nosed, cash is king macho attitude. Failure to do so means they will not have a worthwhile reporting culture which in turn means they will not have the information they need to in order to effectively manage their operation. And to quote the last two sentences of a Donald Rumsfeld quotation: "But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know." and these are the things that bite your bum!
PM
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is RYR the next airline that ceases to be Ppunable. ?
Perhaps not, as he who must be obeyed, loved (loves) any publicity, so to change this to sue any thing that is anti RYR might be difficult.
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Is this an example of why a well known Middle Eastern airline doesn't even allow their name to be mentioned on this site?
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Nil Desperandum (incidents)
The previous attitude to events and yelling CRAP seems not to be in touch with the real world.
Events have happened to all mechanical devices since that poor devil got minced by the first ever train. Each time something nasty happens we all say how horrid lets make sure it doesn't happen again. Then we learnt that the best way is to take into account near misses and use them as a warning of what the next stage will be. To demand and presumably hope to achieve no events ever is silly.
An aspect of this discussion which seems to be lacking is that some aircraft models are inherently closer to tail strikes than others, perhaps a321 and 737/800. This will skew a comparison of the figures between airlines.
On the 737/400 we had a tailskid with wear dimples, when it was worn so as to erode all of the dimples time to change it. Most of the aircraft had some wear marks on the tailskids so most of them had come very close to a tail strike.
I never saw a tail strike on a 300 or 500
Events have happened to all mechanical devices since that poor devil got minced by the first ever train. Each time something nasty happens we all say how horrid lets make sure it doesn't happen again. Then we learnt that the best way is to take into account near misses and use them as a warning of what the next stage will be. To demand and presumably hope to achieve no events ever is silly.
An aspect of this discussion which seems to be lacking is that some aircraft models are inherently closer to tail strikes than others, perhaps a321 and 737/800. This will skew a comparison of the figures between airlines.
On the 737/400 we had a tailskid with wear dimples, when it was worn so as to erode all of the dimples time to change it. Most of the aircraft had some wear marks on the tailskids so most of them had come very close to a tail strike.
I never saw a tail strike on a 300 or 500
Last edited by Tinribs; 26th Apr 2013 at 14:59.
You are absolutely correct; it is quite mischievous to try and compare an Airbus 319 with a Boeing 738 when it comes to tailstrikes. I would imagine that it would be almost impossible to have a tailstrike in an A319.
One of the classics for tailstrikes was the DC-8-61 or the DC-8-63. Rotation took place in two quite separate events.
To introduce a bit of levity to the situation, I once asked one of my DC-8 mates which was the nicest one to fly. Without hesitation he said that the DC-8-62 (normal length fuselage) was the nicest.
What about the DC-8-63?
"Hell; it was like flying a dog with worms!"
Says it all really.
One of the classics for tailstrikes was the DC-8-61 or the DC-8-63. Rotation took place in two quite separate events.
To introduce a bit of levity to the situation, I once asked one of my DC-8 mates which was the nicest one to fly. Without hesitation he said that the DC-8-62 (normal length fuselage) was the nicest.
What about the DC-8-63?
"Hell; it was like flying a dog with worms!"
Says it all really.
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I'll pose a few questions. If you worked for RYR
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I can answer for my own airline:
1. That's life. But if you were still unclear about what you should have done, you could ask for and would be given additional (non-jeopardy) training.
2. It would be left to the Captain to deal with. There would be no come-back.
3. We'd work with the agent to prevent re-occurrence and you would be paid.
4. Very supportive and would even suggest that you take time off.
5. You would have the opportunity to discuss the events and then if necessary, additional training.
Do we have a good reporting culture? At the moment it's reasonable (excellent by comparison with other airlines) and it's getting better. And yes, we have a Just Culture.
1. That's life. But if you were still unclear about what you should have done, you could ask for and would be given additional (non-jeopardy) training.
2. It would be left to the Captain to deal with. There would be no come-back.
3. We'd work with the agent to prevent re-occurrence and you would be paid.
4. Very supportive and would even suggest that you take time off.
5. You would have the opportunity to discuss the events and then if necessary, additional training.
Do we have a good reporting culture? At the moment it's reasonable (excellent by comparison with other airlines) and it's getting better. And yes, we have a Just Culture.
