Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Lionair plane down in Bali.

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 13th Sep 2014, 13:24
  #961 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: CYYC (Calgary)
Posts: 5,329
"Worse still the captain was driven by the local culture that says that real men don't go around and he too deliberately ducked under."

Actually the local culture is not to be confrontational but to work things out together - admittedly a bit tough where they were
HH,
I agree but there is also very strong pressure to avoid loss of face. I've often been in meetings where Indonesian professionals will avoid expressing their opinion, in case they are shown to be wrong.

On the aviation front, years ago, I was at Kai Tak and saw a Garuda DC-10 bounce so high, I felt sure it would have to go around. However, it descended and flared again, and disappeared in a cloud of brake smoke at the far end of the runway! A close call.
India Four Two is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2014, 20:14
  #962 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 542
Minima bust(or not) is a red herring.This is down to airmanship pure and simple.Autopilot OFF and trouble begins.1150' down at 30' is unforgiveable.They were high and one of the strongest caveats in the recovery process is to re-adjust ROD after recapturing profile.Seems like nobody was able to just "fly the plane".Like Asiana.Like AF 447 and countless others.Pilots are a dying breed being replaced by automation(lionair's answer to its woeful record is not to retrain its pilots to actually fly but rather install smart landing from honeywell) and rote procedure(say this when he does that,you do that when he says this,press this button here after he does that etc...).And to cap it all Lionair is now looking to hire FO's for LHS upgrade.Because they cant get enough experienced guys to fly all the brand new jets theyre getting.Crazy.
Ive retired now but I saw it all unfold in my years in the East as an expat.They dont want the automation out,they want to focus on the button-pressing,the monkey-see-monkey-do rote and the SOP.Btw,a GA after losing visual ref below MDA is simple airmanship(in fact not even that,its basic common sense) not SOP.
Rananim is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2014, 09:31
  #963 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Home soon
Posts: 0
Btw,a GA after losing visual ref below MDA is simple airmanship(in fact not even that,its basic common sense) not SOP.
It is in the airline I work for and all the ones prior..,SOP that is.
Not only it is airmanship, but common sense really which could be altered by lack of training.
de facto is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2014, 11:30
  #964 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 53
Posts: 2,767
Even the best pilot in the world would have landed in the sea had he continued to 20ft without sighting the runway
What a strange statement. I would guess that about 80% of the guys I fly with ( that's over 100 people) could fly the 737 from the MAP to the threshold using a basic instrument scan of vertical speed , airspeed, and by aligning the noodle with the dashed white line of the runway. Would any of them do it ? No way, they wouldn't even contemplate it. If nothing seen at MDA....."going round flap 15".
But they could if they had to.
Mind you, they all have many hours flying IFR in turbo props and pistons. Maybe that's the difference.
I find it amazing how much variation there is between airlines.
framer is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2014, 23:23
  #965 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Jungle
Posts: 508
Originally Posted by framer View Post
Mind you, they all have many hours flying IFR in turbo props and pistons. Maybe that's the difference.
I find it amazing how much variation there is between airlines.
Lionair has had a P2F program in the past whereby their FO's pay to fly through programs run by EagleJet and MSD. Most pay-to-fly FOs would not have any real commercial experience prior to joining. It's a real pity the paying public are not forewarned of this.
smiling monkey is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2014, 04:49
  #966 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: germany
Posts: 27
P2F

they also offer/offered (?) a transition program me from FO to CPT...
LowPassGliderA330 is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2014, 11:57
  #967 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In someone pocket
Posts: 1,134
I guess the salary for this capt program is atrocious.. fly 90+hrs of 7000usd..
jetjockey696 is offline  
Old 20th Sep 2014, 12:24
  #968 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In someone pocket
Posts: 1,134
The salary for this capt program is atrocious.. fly 90+hrs of <6000usd..

they bleeding pilots.. both FO and capt are leaving for better T & C. I got told over 400+ pilots have left. and more to go..up to now. so they been accepting local senior FOs who have been flying CASA (slight bigger than a twin otter etc) to jump straight into B737 as Captain. no jet time or glass time, and relying on the lion cadet pilots/ab initial pilots to stop the bleeding with a non experience jet capt.

All in all there is accident worst than Bali accident waiting to happen.. but i hope not.

they been using a new agency to recruit captains in europe called presidential something with promise of excellent salary and benefits etc... hahaha...

What they are getting are the bottom of the barrel capts with bad or not existence CRM. no one wants.

The rainy season is soon to be here... that will sort out the real pilots from the wananbes..

and now the airbus is arriving ....
jetjockey696 is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 07:19
  #969 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Jakarta
Posts: 38
I spent 3 years in Jakarta flying a Gulfstream around the region. We were not allowed on Lion air at all. I watched them land with tailwinds on wet runways all the time. Take-off in weather we would wait for. Land long and almost go off the end of the runway. Bali did not surprise me one bit.

I had drinks many times with the low time F/O's in a few expat bars in Jakarta. The stories they told were just down right scary. Now reading this thread it seems it will only get worse. Indonesia is not the place for people without good experience.
mach92 is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 15:37
  #970 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 70
Posts: 2,833
Do not disagree with your analyses, but if I read the report right , here , like in many others accidents recently, it is not the" inexperienced FO" , P2F or not, who caused the accident but rather the "old experienced Captain" .
Just a reminder.
ATC Watcher is online now  
Old 10th Oct 2014, 08:22
  #971 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,384
So where was the FO?
None of my FOs would allow me to pull a stunt like this.
ManaAdaSystem is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2014, 14:18
  #972 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: In Space
Posts: 682
The FO was there, but unfortunately his culture is very yes sir, you are totally right sir, to someone who is more senior than him.

The only way LNI will get out of this rut is to have expat management running the show for a few years, and beat safety into everyone.
B737900er is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2014, 18:24
  #973 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 53
Posts: 2,767
Or you could get expat pilots who have already had safety beaten into them, probably easier.
framer is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2014, 08:28
  #974 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,083
but at a price.................
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2014, 18:53
  #975 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 53
Posts: 2,767
Yip. Indo is a nice place to live though if you can get out of Jakarta.
I imagine 12k USD net for Captains with $200 an hour after 65 hours would do the trick. Much cheaper than putting aircraft into the drink.
framer is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2014, 00:43
  #976 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Coast Canada
Posts: 3,694
I have heard reports that both Capt and FO have been fired. Is this true ?
Big Pistons Forever is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.