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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 31st Aug 2013, 08:13
  #881 (permalink)  
 
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Thinking about it, it is actually as form of 'art' they were unable to keep the airplane stable but at the same time, were JUST able to avoid a GPWS alert...

Which suggests that if they'd not disconnected, or at the very worst followed the FD they might have made land-fall, even the RWY. Mind you, not visual, you should not play those silly games unless the tanks were empty or other highly mitigating circumstances.
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Old 1st Sep 2013, 14:54
  #882 (permalink)  
 
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OK465: You have studied the data more deeply than I and I thank you for the insight.
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Old 6th Sep 2013, 03:53
  #883 (permalink)  
 
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What could possibly be more important than turning off the wipers? The boss would be be pissed when he would have to replace them.
God, I love corporate aviation.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 10:23
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Final report has been published. You can read it here
http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_av...20released.pdf'

Flightglobal reports on the report
Lion Air crew castigated in Bali crash final report - 9/1/2014 - Flight Global

The final report into the crash of a Lion Air Boeing 737-800 aircraft on short finals to land at Denpasar's Ngurah Rai International airport on 13 April 2013 has identified several safety issues around the skill of the pilots and the carrier's emergency response procedures.

The National Transportation Safety Committee (NTSC) report retains the same chronology as the preliminary report issued in May 2013. As with the earlier report, it highlights the failure of the captain and first officer to communicate effectively prior to impacting the water. The final report also refers to CCTV footage, which shows the extent of the rainy weather immediately prior to the crash, which prevented the flight crew from seeing the runway.
Continue at source

Last edited by 1stspotter; 1st Sep 2014 at 10:52.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 14:55
  #885 (permalink)  
 
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Although the aircraft's automated systems issued a "minimum" warning at 550ft, the crew disengaged the autopilot and autothrottle, and continued the descent flying manually. .....

At 300ft, the report reveals that the cockpit voice recorder picked up a sound consistent with rain hitting the windshield, although there was no sound of windshield wipers. When the 737 had descended to just 150ft, the captain took control of the aircraft, while the first officer again said that he could not see the runway.

During interviews, the captain maintained that he was confident the runway would appear at any moment. It was only when the enhanced ground proximity warning system called a 20ft height alert that the pilot commanded a go-around but, just 1s later, the aircraft impacted the water.
Where do these clowns get their licenses from? They have absolutely NFI
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 17:49
  #886 (permalink)  
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So can I assume they went below the minima while not visual with the runway?
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 19:29
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...
During interviews, the captain maintained that he was confident the runway would appear at any Moment....


Ahhh, confidence is a wonderfull criterion when dealing with minima...
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 21:43
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On reviewing the report, the training records of the two 'pilots' are quite frankly an embarrassment. A completely avoidable accident that wrote off a brand new aircraft and very fortunately didn't kill anyone. Words fail me.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 01:33
  #889 (permalink)  
 
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From the CVR transript:

At 0708:56 UTC SIC stated that the runway was not in sight

At 0709:12 UTC PIC stated that approach light in sight and decided to continue the approach

.. only problem with that statement by the PIC is that there are no approach lights to runway 09 at Denpasar WADD.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 03:09
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From the time the PIC took over below the minimums he was only fixated to sighting the RW and landing and when he didn't sight the RW he was just frozen. The report indicates that even at 20ft. with a ROD 1136ft/mt except verbalizing a GA precious little else was done, no change in pitch, no triggering of Go Levers only a mere 3% manual increase of N1. Every airline has SOPs but the actual monitoring of it and the culture prevailing will decide the outcome in crunch situations. If this captain would have pulled off this landing and became an object of admiration instead of censure then it is a matter of time this co-pilot will attempt it and may not be able to pull it off.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 03:44
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Interesting that the FO has to go back to the overwings to assist opening during a ditching.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 05:13
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Flight Time

There is no doubt that the crew made a complete hash of the final approach with very poor decision making, situational awareness and procedural compliance however one thing I noticed in the report was that the PIC had flown 205 hrs 20 minutes in the preceding 60 days. That is a lot of flying on a predominately short haul operation. This does not seem to have been remarked on by he investigators.

Is this the modern way now and deemed to be totally normal and acceptable in this age of cost cutting and maximum productivity?
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 06:16
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One of the worse things that can happen to the civilized world of aviation is if the black ball status is lifted which would allow Lion Air jeopardize safety beyond the borders of their current operations.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 06:34
  #894 (permalink)  
 
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So can I assume they went below the minima while not visual with the runway?
Happily, the link to the NTSC's final report provided in post #886 means that we don't need to make any assumptions about what may or may not have happened.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 07:33
  #895 (permalink)  
 
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What's the runway doing up there ??

Not only can you assume they went below the minima while not visual with the runway, you can assume they went (at least a little bit) below sea level without being visual with the runway.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 08:00
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The visual reference required to go below minima on a NPA under EU ops are as follows;

VISUAL REFERENCE
The pilot shall not continue an approach below minimum
descent height unless at least one of the following
elements is distinctly visible and identifiable to the
pilot:
– elements of the approach light system,
– threshold, threshold markings, threshold lights or
threshold identification lights,
– visual glide slope indicator,
– touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings,
– TDZ,

The requirements in the Lion Air ops manual are similar but I can't cut and paste them. They are in the report if you care to read it. Since the crew had sight of approach lights and runway end indicator lights they would have been fully legal to continue below minima. Having probably justifyably gone below minima the problem they were then faced with was at what stage do you then throw the approach away if the runway does not become visual as expected. The lion Air manual goes on to say that a go-round should be performed if visual reference cannot be maintained but it does not specifly a minmum level of visual reference. It does not specify that the runway must be in sight.

This is not as clear cut as a crew busting minima and anyone who thinks it is really needs to do a bit more study.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 08:05
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Rubbish-

RWY 09 in WADD does NOT have any approach Lights.

So at the MDA on this non-precision VOR approach they were required to sight the runway or at the very least approach Environment and Threshold. The VIS req for the approach is 2,100m for gods sake.

This Captain didn't see jack and continued, he didn't even turn on the wipers...

If he had seen the approach environment such as the 15' high dam wall or threshold HE WOULDN'T HAVE FLOWN INTO THE SEA would he.

He said it himself in the report....."I expected to see the runway....." and he admits he never did.

Whatever the rules you don't fly around blind below MDA "feeling" you way to the runway!!!! Especially on a non-precision approach...

Last edited by ACMS; 2nd Sep 2014 at 08:16.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 08:41
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Originally Posted by tightcircuit
Since the crew had sight of approach lights and runway end indicator lights they would have been fully legal to continue below minima.
I have flown in to WADD over 300 times and about 75% of the time, on runway 09. There are NO approach lights to runway 09.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 08:51
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Tightcircuit,

Stop defending this Insult to Aviation Safety called Lionair that should have its AOC revoked with immediate effect.
Poor Airmanship is rooted in this "airline" that thrives on exploitation of their PAYING First Officers and upgrading/hiring the embarrassingly incompetent as Captain.

Unfortunately, Indonesia, and its passengers do not give a damn about Safety, as long as tickets are cheap.
An extremely worrying trend spreading to the rest of the World.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 10:38
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Originally Posted by tightcircuit
The lion Air manual goes on to say that a go-round should be performed if visual reference cannot be maintained but it does not specifly a minmum level of visual reference. It does not specify that the runway must be in sight.
Are you for real?? Please don't tell me you're actually a professional pilot. If you can't see the runway, then how the are you going to land? Well, I tell you how, you won't land on the runway but you'll end up in the water just like PK-LKS did.

If you are infact a pilot for Lion Air and this is how you approach your flying then, you have just convinced me that I, or any of my family members, will never step foot on a Lion Air aircraft for as long as we live.
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