Runway incursion at YYZ (driverless van)
Thread Starter
HS125, I was referring to laws intended to prevent vehicle theft, and I expect that law does not exempt airports. Nonetheless, I agree that it might make sense to leave keys in a vehicle airside, where there are no criminals.
Last edited by no expert; 18th Mar 2013 at 00:07.
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CYYZ is, without a doubt, one of the worst tower/ground controll/ ATC facilities in the Wetern World, {there are many even worse, but Im talking about the Wetern World} you guys "Babble" so much that the normal human reaction is to either ignore you or try to filter out most of it
This incident is being discussed on the online forums with the controller in question being accused of not using proper phraseology..sounding laid back...that this wasn't really an issue as the plane landed safely etc etc.
The controller here did his job.....spotting a prime target on the ASDE at a time of night that some on the internet are saying is a time that "spatial awareness" could be lacking.....and issued the correct instruction to a soon to land aircraft because he couldn't guarantee that the runway was "sterile".
Now from that incident...even as a rough copy before the full investigation...I am not sure how that can rank up there as some of the worst ATC in the western world....especially as the view from the tower at night is not going to give a razor sharp clear view of a tiny van rolling across the threshold of 24R.
I don't normally feel this strongly on PPRUNE Or Avcanada...but tis difficult to keep low when assertions and bold statements are being made on an occasion when even before the official details are released the optics look OK for ATC but bad for the pilots (and the van driver). Criticize based on times when we have ****ed up.....not linking it to this incident when my colleague in the tower did the job that a Western world controller should do.
Last edited by Married a Canadian; 18th Mar 2013 at 01:21.
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I would like to hear an example of the YYZ ATC "Babble".
I have been the cause of an overshoot
. And I got to say the controller made everyone on frequency completely aware of what was going on and why the guys in the 737 behind me needed to practice their circuit procedure. Before I pass blame on anyone though I would really like to hear the actual TWR recordings.
The Van driver should get his license suspended...but I could be jumping to a conclusion there too. Maybe it was a vehicle problem.
I have been the cause of an overshoot
. And I got to say the controller made everyone on frequency completely aware of what was going on and why the guys in the 737 behind me needed to practice their circuit procedure. Before I pass blame on anyone though I would really like to hear the actual TWR recordings. The Van driver should get his license suspended...but I could be jumping to a conclusion there too. Maybe it was a vehicle problem.
Last edited by SEIFR; 18th Mar 2013 at 02:00.
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In the last copy of "P X", the magazine of the "Retired Airline Pilots Of Canada" there is a very well writen and amusing article about what is wrong with ATC at CYYZ, If anyone could post it here it sums up the failings of Nav Canada in a nutshell, I cant copy it as I sent the publication to a friend in Germany {a controller by the way}to illustrate the very points being made here!
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Total shock you can't cut and paste your spectacular editorial supposedly authored by a bunch of dementia ridden senior citizens clunck. Probably doesn't exist and if it does, it probably holds as much water as the average mainstream media report citing LiveAtc as the primary source. Been CT'd before?
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Beefheart
Total shock on my side of the pond that someone in wonderful Canada seems to believe that the world end at the horizon line of his bush cabin !!
Like to suggest you better check first to whom you send what kind of message.
By the way, I have just made a copy of that mentioned article, though I am almost as old as clunck!!
No hard feelings please !!
Like to suggest you better check first to whom you send what kind of message.
By the way, I have just made a copy of that mentioned article, though I am almost as old as clunck!!
No hard feelings please !!
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My view is YZ ATC does a fantastic job, with limited resources.
They are constrained by a very poor runway (airport) layout, brutal Airport Authority (The GTAA,) and possibly a MANOPS that is in desperate need of updating.
As for the individual Controllers, I would match them up with anyone.
They are constrained by a very poor runway (airport) layout, brutal Airport Authority (The GTAA,) and possibly a MANOPS that is in desperate need of updating.
As for the individual Controllers, I would match them up with anyone.
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brutal Airport Authority (The GTAA,)
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Beefheart
Sorry, was busy with other tasks. But here the promised copy of the PX article on behalf of clunkdriver
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps81cf177c.jpg
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps81cf177c.jpg
Last edited by Annex14; 19th Mar 2013 at 23:37.
As a suggestion to all, tone down the level of mud throwing and how about this for a novel concept? Wait for the report to be published!!
As one who has used ATC services from South America, Central America, North America, Europe, Asia, Middle East etc my option is this best service is the U.K. Followed in short order Germany and Switzerland.
For YYZ consider this the GTAA and Nav Canada are the guilty parties NOT the controllers who work in the set of regulations set upon them by previous mentioned agencies. In YYZ my most favourite controller was " ROG" now since retired who worked through the hoops but had fun doing so. For the 06:00 curfew he nailed the speed control so well at 400 feet clock went from 05:59 to 06:00 now that was great work.
A message for Beefheart I think you have had 5 posts in 9 years (?) and if you can not contribute in a thoughtful manner please do the community a favour by not posting.
As one who has used ATC services from South America, Central America, North America, Europe, Asia, Middle East etc my option is this best service is the U.K. Followed in short order Germany and Switzerland.
For YYZ consider this the GTAA and Nav Canada are the guilty parties NOT the controllers who work in the set of regulations set upon them by previous mentioned agencies. In YYZ my most favourite controller was " ROG" now since retired who worked through the hoops but had fun doing so. For the 06:00 curfew he nailed the speed control so well at 400 feet clock went from 05:59 to 06:00 now that was great work.
A message for Beefheart I think you have had 5 posts in 9 years (?) and if you can not contribute in a thoughtful manner please do the community a favour by not posting.
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 20th Mar 2013 at 12:30. Reason: Typo
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a330pilotcanada:
How thoughtful is it to cut and paste an out of date, factually inaccurate and basically irrelevant article? Highlighting the fact that the author misled his readers by offering up "embellished" yet easily verifiable data actually serves this community quite well and I believe it is our collective responsibility to continue to do so.
How thoughtful is it to cut and paste an out of date, factually inaccurate and basically irrelevant article? Highlighting the fact that the author misled his readers by offering up "embellished" yet easily verifiable data actually serves this community quite well and I believe it is our collective responsibility to continue to do so.
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Just read the article..bit difficult to take it seriously given how out of date it is. The most amusing part for me was "London Heathrow is 4 times busier than Toronto" which with my rough count would mean Heathrow does something like 1.6 million movements a year...at the current time. Hmmmmm!
Anyway...not much more to add on this subject until said report comes out.
I will also say....having worked in the much loved UK air traffic control system....we had the same complaints over there from the local pilots as I get over here. Just a matter of perspective really. Mr Speedbird told me the other week that it was a pleasure to fly into YYZ (winter ops and all) as opposed to his home base.....I could hear the Air Canada bods snorting on the frequency!
Just ask the London GA community about Heathrow and it's class A zone.
Anyway..safe flying to all...and please answer me by my second transmission.
Anyway...not much more to add on this subject until said report comes out.
I will also say....having worked in the much loved UK air traffic control system....we had the same complaints over there from the local pilots as I get over here. Just a matter of perspective really. Mr Speedbird told me the other week that it was a pleasure to fly into YYZ (winter ops and all) as opposed to his home base.....I could hear the Air Canada bods snorting on the frequency!
Just ask the London GA community about Heathrow and it's class A zone.
Anyway..safe flying to all...and please answer me by my second transmission.
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A330 Pilot, well said, in one thread "Beef" has accused three of us of lying, this in spite of the said "non existant article" now having been cut and pasted to PPrune, {from Germany by the way, where as I stated my copy finished up} I doubt seeing his other posts we will see a retraction of these acusations. As you know, my wife is a retired Air Taffic Contoller, her comment on reading his ramble was, "he reminds me of a very unhappy chap we had in P--- tower who didnt make it beyond the B stand". We may be critical of CYYZ, this may upset "Married a Canadian", but we agree to disagree without spouting such vitriol at each other. and MAC, Speedbird was just happy to hear a "home town voice" methinks, or trying to get you to buy the beer, you know how cheap us pilots are!
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Can we not all be patient enough to wait for the TSB findings before assuming ATC messed up? As far as i know an Air Canada pilot was instructed twice to go around and did not comply! Why he didn't go around ? Who knows? It's the TSB's job to figure that out. And i'm assuming clunckdriver is probably one of the reasons so many transmissions have to be made between pilots and controllers. He doesn't come across as a very good listener....
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Sorry, forgot to add...
The proper phraseology is "(callsign eg ACA123), pull up and go around" Nothing more, nothing less!. Usually we'll add a heading and altitude in the initial instruction but some of us don't do that anymore cause it's always missed. A few seconds later we'll give the heading and altitude, although, in this case he never got the chance cause he was still trying to get the guy to go around!
The proper phraseology is "(callsign eg ACA123), pull up and go around" Nothing more, nothing less!. Usually we'll add a heading and altitude in the initial instruction but some of us don't do that anymore cause it's always missed. A few seconds later we'll give the heading and altitude, although, in this case he never got the chance cause he was still trying to get the guy to go around!
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Clunck:
I was half wrong. The article does actually exist. I sincerely apologize for doubting that. That said and based on the actual content of said article, I'm absolutely ecstatic it's still out there.
I was half wrong. The article does actually exist. I sincerely apologize for doubting that. That said and based on the actual content of said article, I'm absolutely ecstatic it's still out there.
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What "Married a Canadian" Said!!!!
Wasn't sure what i can say, seeing how i'm new here... ATC was completely and totally spot on in this instance! The mere fact that tower even saw the vehicle on ASDE was incredible! I would like an explanation from someone as to how an instruction to go around was completely ignored?
Aside from that, I understand why some pilots may think YYZ Ground "over controls" or "talks too much". You guys really need to understand that it's one controller vs god knows how many pilots at any given time. How many of the pilots out there have ever had to ask "who's first?" in Toronto? It's a long way from AL to RWY 23, even further to 05. Do you expect the ground controller to have his eyes on you and you alone the whole way there?
Wasn't sure what i can say, seeing how i'm new here... ATC was completely and totally spot on in this instance! The mere fact that tower even saw the vehicle on ASDE was incredible! I would like an explanation from someone as to how an instruction to go around was completely ignored?
Aside from that, I understand why some pilots may think YYZ Ground "over controls" or "talks too much". You guys really need to understand that it's one controller vs god knows how many pilots at any given time. How many of the pilots out there have ever had to ask "who's first?" in Toronto? It's a long way from AL to RWY 23, even further to 05. Do you expect the ground controller to have his eyes on you and you alone the whole way there?
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FYI the Canadian Transportation Safety Board official report regarding this incident was recently released:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapport...5/a13o0045.pdf
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapport...5/a13o0045.pdf
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A very interesting read that report.
It's interesting to see the "Holes in the Swiss Cheese" line up - van in drive, dim beacon on van, detection systems too slow, electronic delays in radio traffic, crew concentrating on landing - and luckily this time without a bad result. I though the consideration that the last thing the crew would expect at that exact point was a go-around and nothing visible on the ground was interesting.
Speaking as a non-aviator but as an engineer it's very instructive.
It's interesting to see the "Holes in the Swiss Cheese" line up - van in drive, dim beacon on van, detection systems too slow, electronic delays in radio traffic, crew concentrating on landing - and luckily this time without a bad result. I though the consideration that the last thing the crew would expect at that exact point was a go-around and nothing visible on the ground was interesting.
Speaking as a non-aviator but as an engineer it's very instructive.